What is Wrong with People

[MickMcGeough]

Sorry, but this story is just as horrible if the headlines were "Irresponsible, poorly-parented, intoxicated 15-year old gang raped and hangs herself after 2 years of heavy drug use, shame, and association with shady characters."

[Azure]

Is anyone saying it isn't as horrible?

Hell, please point out where anyone here has said it is her fault?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hell, please point out where anyone here has said it is her fault

Originally Posted by Byrns

She appears to have had a high risk lifestyle

That's pretty darn close if you ask me.

[Azure]

Oh FFS.

It IS a high risk lifestyle. If you go out and get drunk at a random party where you obviously don't know all the people or at least have someone looking out for you, you are absolutely risking 'date rape.' This is why they teach it in school. Constantly. To NOT put yourself in that situation. Because it IS risky. Thousands of confirmed cases with thousands more where the girl who got raped couldn't come forward due to a variety of different reasons teaches us that valuable lesson.

It doesn't make it HER fault at all. It just shows us how we can teach our kids to prevent incidents like that because there are sick people out there that will gang rape an innocent 15 year if they get the chance.

[MickMcGeough]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is anyone saying it isn't as horrible?

Hell, please point out where anyone here has said it is her fault?

Nobody said it was her fault. There's just a lot of minimizing going on.

Originally Posted by Byrns

I wonder if her parents had parented better she would've not been in the situation to be raped in the first place.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's not a shock when someone who runs with gangs eventually gets murdered, just like it isn't a surprise when a young girl getting drunk and high with a group of boys gets raped.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Oh FFS.

It IS a high risk lifestyle. If you go out and get drunk at a random party where you obviously don't know all the people or at least have someone looking out for you, you are absolutely risking 'date rape.'

And you called someone else naive....

Going by this definition, being a teenager is a high risk lifestyle.

What's the deal with the quotation marks around date rape? Someone else did that too. It seems like a subtle way of trivializing what happened to this person.

It's real "clever".

[killer_carlson]

i saw a remarkable change of attitude around the term date rape and the date rape drug several years ago. I was in Australia at the time. Much like here guys were saying "she asked for it", or "she invited the rape" by taking drinks from strangers etc etc


Then a series of news stories ran where victims of the date rape drug were actually straight guys who had something tossed into their drinks at the bar. they woke up in an alley or in a hotel room after having been raped. Suddenly the same behavior which was "asking for it" just days prior was instantly re-characterized and put into the category of brutal and horrific.

Rape is rape. Anyone who justifies the behavior of the perpetrators of the rape are morons or have something to hide.

[CaptainCrunch]

Her lifestyle is irrelevant, these boys took advantage and raped a girl that couldn't defend herself.

Saying that her taking drugs or drinking heavily should somehow lesson the impact that this is a brutal crime is wrong, its just as wrong as wearing a miniskirt means yes.

Could her parents or her done a better job of protecting, sure absolutely why not, but that doesn't absolve the crime or what should be the punishment.

If the police didn't prosecute because of the girls lifestyle then they're bad police officers.

I thought we'd gotten away from the whole its the lifestyles fault a long time ago.

[Azure]

No, going to a party when you're 15 and getting drunk without having someone look out for you is 'high-risk.' Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

And I'm not trivializing at all what happened.

Not sure why this is so hard to get. Yes, lots of teenagers drink. Yes it is against the law. Yes it ends badly. Date rape, drinking and driving which leads to someone being killed....maybe high-risk is a nice way of putting it.

Over 100,000 teenagers were rape victims in 2004 in the US. The overwhelming majority of these cases involve drugs and alcohol. Any 'teen help' organization will offer steps to help prevent these kinds of situations and they ALWAYS, ALWAYS mention to be aware of 'high risk' situations, including situations that involve drugs and alcohol.

But no, lets ignore that because being a teenager goes hand in hand with getting drunk.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Her lifestyle is irrelevant, these boys took advantage and raped a girl that couldn't defend herself.

Saying that her taking drugs or drinking heavily should somehow lesson the impact that this is a brutal crime is wrong, its just as wrong as wearing a miniskirt means yes.

Could her parents or her done a better job of protecting, sure absolutely why not, but that doesn't absolve the crime or what should be the punishment.

If the police didn't prosecute because of the girls lifestyle then they're bad police officers.

I thought we'd gotten away from the whole its the lifestyles fault a long time ago.

We have gotten away from it. Some people just can't process the idea that there is a huge difference between saying you should be more responsible, and it is YOUR fault that you got raped because you wore the miniskirt. And because they can't see the difference they think people blame the victim. And I have yet to see anyone blame the victim here. Saying it isn't surprising that 15 year olds who go to parties and get drunk and get raped does not say it is the victims fault. It means that when you're 15 you don't understand the dangers involved with losing control of your body and people will take advantage of that.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, going to a party when you're 15 and getting drunk without having someone look out for you is 'high-risk.' Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

And I'm not trivializing at all what happened.

Not sure why this is so hard to get. Yes, lots of teenagers drink. Yes it is against the law. Yes it ends badly. Date rape, drinking and driving which leads to someone being killed....maybe high-risk is a nice way of putting it.

Over 100,000 teenagers were rape victims in 2004 in the US. The overwhelming majority of these cases involve drugs and alcohol. Any 'teen help' organization will offer steps to help prevent these kids of situations and they ALWAYS, ALWAYS mention to be aware of 'high risk' situations, including situations that involve drugs and alcohol.

But no, lets ignore that because being a teenager goes hand in hand with getting drunk.

Trust me, nothing you are saying is too difficult for me to understand. I don't agree with you. There is a difference.

In this incident, there are criminals, and a victim. Period. A bunch of punks sexually assaulted a passed-out girl.

"Yeah, sure, that's terrible. But..."

[CaptainCrunch]

Sure I don't disagree, but to me, then this makes the crime by the gang rapists even more reprehensible.

As parents you absolutely have to make sure that your kids are aware and prepared.

But I don't think it has any relevancy whatsoever to prosecuting the case.

"She was passed out and vulnerable and I was horny" is not and should never be a legal defense.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Trust me, nothing you are saying is too difficult for me to understand. I don't agree with you. There is a difference.

In this incident, there are criminals, and a victim. Period. A bunch of punks sexually assaulted a passed-out girl.

"Yeah, sure, that's terrible. But..."

I think we all accept the fact that the boys are the criminals and the girl is the victim. That she was involved in drugs/alcohol doesn't change anything about that. In fact, given that she apparently got involved in at afterwards makes it even worse because she easily could have gone down that road when there was no other help available.

The 'But, but....' part has nothing to do with that and everything to do with what we can all tell our kids about situations like this.

We would tell them not to go to a high-crime area of town, just like we would tell them not to get behind the wheel if they've been drinking, and NOT to go to parties without at least some kind of supervision. And to watch what they drink, etc, etc.

Saying that does not change anything about a case that seems pretty black and white. Except for the lack of convictions that is.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Sure I don't disagree, but to me, then this makes the crime by the gang rapists even more reprehensible.

As parents you absolutely have to make sure that your kids are aware and prepared.

But I don't think it has any relevancy whatsoever to prosecuting the case.

"She was passed out and vulnerable and I was horny" is not and should never be a legal defense.

It is not a defense at all. The boys should not be able to use it as such.

It is more of a 'how the hell do I as a parent keep my 15 year old girl from being the next victim' question that every parent in Canada was asking themselves after they heard about this.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by Azure

It is not a defense at all. The boys should not be able to use it as such.

It is more of a 'how the hell do I as a parent keep my 15 year old girl from being the next victim' question that every parent in Canada was asking themselves after they heard about this.

Well by not letting them go to parties and restricting large aspects of their lives is not the answer, it just invites rebellion. The issue I have with how Rehteah's parents tried to deal with her is the fact they did not have any control on her schooling it seems from her twitter posts. If you look back in her history she posts a tweet showing that he earned 0 credits in her semester, and was taking Grade 10 courses as a 17 year old. I guess I've never experienced people who struggled so mightily in school, but I was shocked by that post, where her highest grade was something like 34 percent. You have to think stuff like that just leads to even greater loss in confidence with yourself, that you can't even keep a single aspect of your life in order.

Teenagers will experiment, some will have sexual relations at a young age, try alcohol at parties and smoke some pot. Majority of them turn out to be fine human beings. Experimenting as a teenager is a part of being a teenager. Parents can try to control that but in the end the kid will find a way to do what he/she wants. What a parent and teachers should be able to control is how their kid spends their day from 9-5 during the week, to be able to help them become confident in their ability to thrive in school. It's just another aspect that leads to people committing suicide. I'm rambling about this a bit, my point in all this is that if anyone is looking at her role models as a reason why she took her own life, I believe it starts there. No doubt in my mind the bullying and the shame from the assault sent her into the spiral that she was in, but the parents should be able to try to help control that aspect of her life at least.

[missdpuck]

So I now I just read about this other case coming out of California, where the defense attorneys for the boys involved are saying they are good kids who never got into trouble with the law....what does that have to do with it.

The rape happened last year but the arrests were made last week. This was in Saratoga CA a prosperous Silicon Valley suburb, blalblahblah

[Kybosh]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

So I now I just read about this other case coming out of California, where the defense attorneys for the boys involved are saying they are good kids who never got into trouble with the law....what does that have to do with it.

Oh my god, they're pulling out the "I'm just a simple country lawyer" strategy!

[valo403]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

So I now I just read about this other case coming out of California, where the defense attorneys for the boys involved are saying they are good kids who never got into trouble with the law....what does that have to do with it.

The rape happened last year but the arrests were made last week. This was in Saratoga CA a prosperous Silicon Valley suburb, blalblahblah

If you're a defense attorney it has plenty to do with it, especially if the case is relying on things other than direct physical evidence. Shaping the way that both the accused and the victim are viewed is a huge part of a criminal case, particularly sexual assault cases.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by valo403

If you're a defense attorney it has plenty to do with it, especially if the case is relying on things other than direct physical evidence. Shaping the way that both the accused and the victim are viewed is a huge part of a criminal case, particularly sexual assault cases.

Past criminal convictions (especially for "crimes of dishonesty" like theft or fraud or perjury) may also be relevant to credibility (which is generally the main issue in sexual assault trials.)

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by missdpuck

So I now I just read about this other case coming out of California, where the defense attorneys for the boys involved are saying they are good kids who never got into trouble with the law....what does that have to do with it.

The rape happened last year but the arrests were made last week. This was in Saratoga CA a prosperous Silicon Valley suburb, blalblahblah

Isn't this the equivalent to we know our client is guilty and we're trying to maneuver the sentencing.

I didn't think that past behaviors were supposed to be all that relevant in determining guilt or innocent.