Ongoing Terrorism/ISIS/al Qaeda Thread

[peter12]

Originally Posted by heep223

I definitely agree with you and I think it's actually deeper than this. The reason that these young people are susceptible to being brain washed into thinking there's some sort of glorious afterlife is because they live in poverty, have no opportunities in their lives and are uneducated. The are hopeless and this provides them an escape. The whole idea of heaven and hell originated as a measure of controlling a large population of people who needed a reason to have a sense of morality in order for society to function. Religion is the opiate of the masses and was born out of suffering.

If you solve the suffering, religion becomes unnecessary because people are happy and enjoying their actual lives. And they've developed a sense of morality because it's the right thing to do, and they are able to do so because their needs are met. Hence why places with large amounts of poverty are also very religious and places with less poverty have become much more agnostic/atheist. It's why religious belief is declining in the west. We don't need it anymore because we are enjoying our actual lives. IMO

The answer lies somehow in providing economic and personal opportunity, education, equality, meritocracy and social support in the roots of these societies. The problem is the complexity of fixing these issues in places that are really ####ed up and have been for thousands of years.

But this is outmoded thinking. As I argued earlier, it is exactly this benign type of liberalism that has created the problem before us.

In an era of unprecedented wealth, we have increasing levels of anger and anxiety.

Painting all religions with the same brush is also not very helpful. Christianity's view of the afterlife emphasizes the need for virtue in this world, and the difficulty in translating success or happiness in this life into the next.

[MolsonInBothHands]

Pretty freaky for me... I was just in that airport last week.

I hope they can find those responsible, and I hope we can puts somes minds to ease.

[polak]

Originally Posted by heep223

I definitely agree with you and I think it's actually deeper than this. The reason that these young people are susceptible to being brain washed into thinking there's some sort of glorious afterlife is because they live in poverty, have no opportunities in their lives and are uneducated. The are hopeless and this provides them an escape. The whole idea of heaven and hell originated as a measure of controlling a large population of people who needed a reason to have a sense of morality in order for society to function. Religion is the opiate of the masses and was born out of suffering.

If you solve the suffering, religion becomes unnecessary because people are happy and enjoying their actual lives. And they've developed a sense of morality because it's the right thing to do, and they are able to do so because their needs are met. Hence why places with large amounts of poverty are also very religious and places with less poverty have become much more agnostic/atheist. It's why religious belief is declining in the west. We don't need it anymore because we are enjoying our actual lives. IMO

The answer lies somehow in providing economic and personal opportunity, education, equality, meritocracy and social support in the roots of these societies. The problem is the complexity of fixing these issues in places that are really ####ed up and have been for thousands of years.

Yup I agree with this 100%.

Now what's easier, proving beyond all doubt that there is no afterlife (which to your point, might be filled with another mind numbing tactic to placate the poor) or fixing all the economic and social disparity in the world?

You might say the latter but I think if people saw the reduction in their quality of life that would need to take place to even out this disparity, they would quickly change their tune.

Seems to me that the solution isn't taking away from the rich and redistributing to the poor but to think of a way to just make everyone rich. Advancement in energy tech, 3D Printing and GMO's on a massive scale could do this.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by heep223

I definitely agree with you and I think it's actually deeper than this. The reason that these young people are susceptible to being brain washed into thinking there's some sort of glorious afterlife is because they live in poverty, have no opportunities in their lives and are uneducated. The are hopeless and this provides them an escape. The whole idea of heaven and hell originated as a measure of controlling a large population of people who needed a reason to have a sense of morality in order for society to function. Religion is the opiate of the masses and was born out of suffering.

If you solve the suffering, religion becomes unnecessary because people are happy and enjoying their actual lives. And they've developed a sense of morality because it's the right thing to do, and they are able to do so because their needs are met. Hence why places with large amounts of poverty are also very religious and places with less poverty have become much more agnostic/atheist. It's why religious belief is declining in the west. We don't need it anymore because we are enjoying our actual lives. IMO

The answer lies somehow in providing economic and personal opportunity, education, equality, meritocracy and social support in the roots of these societies. The problem is the complexity of fixing these issues in places that are really ####ed up and have been for thousands of years.

Many of the militants coming from the UK come from upper middle class backgrounds. They have engineering degrees and plenty of opportunity.

If you want to look at in on a country by country basis, then yes you'll see a link between wealth and terrorism, as just about everyone but the elite is poor in many countries. However, if you look at citizens withing a single country and who becomes a terrorist, no such link exists.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by heep223

IThe reason that these young people are susceptible to being brain washed into thinking there's some sort of glorious afterlife is because they live in poverty, have no opportunities in their lives and are uneducated.

There isn't any correlation between poverty and terrorism. A great many terrorists are middle-class, and most of the world's most impoverished countries do not foster terrorism.

Originally Posted by heep223

The are hopeless and this provides them an escape. The whole idea of heaven and hell originated as a measure of controlling a large population of people who needed a reason to have a sense of morality in order for society to function. Religion is the opiate of the masses and was born out of suffering.

I agree that religion works as a salve for suffering. But that suffering does not have to be economic. The young people raised in the West who flock to the banner of Isis are not poor. But they do suffer from a psychological (or spiritual, if you like) malaise. They have no purpose. They feel alienated from the community around them. They cannot happily occupy themselves with the indulgences that many young people in the West pursue - drinking and drugs, sex, other kinds of cheerful hedonism - because their faith tells them those things are sinful. So they seek the purity of a simple cause.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by peter12

But this is outmoded thinking. As I argued earlier, it is exactly this benign type of liberalism that has created the problem before us.

In an era of unprecedented wealth, we have increasing levels of anger and anxiety.

Painting all religions with the same brush is also not very helpful. Christianity's view of the afterlife emphasizes the need for virtue in this world, and the difficulty in translating success or happiness in this life into the next.

I don't disagree with most of that. That was my best effort at explaining because I can't for the life of me figure out what should be done. Yes that liberalism has led us here ok, but shouldn't we continue to see it through? To support global societies in developing their version of what we have? Most people in the non-western world want their own version of what we have. I don't know what the answer is or what to do.

As to the bolded above, it's the only thing that you said that I may disagree with. There has always been a huge amount of anger and anxiety and war in the world. It's just more visible and accessible now. As much as you hear about rising inequality, you don't hear that the world's standard of living has been steadily rising for the past 100 years and the number of global citizens living in abject poverty has also been dropping significantly. It's hard to see sometimes especially on days like today, but I firmly believe the world was a better place in 1900 than in 1800, in 1950 than in 1900, in 2000 than in 1950 and in 2016 than in 2000.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

They have no purpose. They feel alienated from the community around them. They cannot happily occupy themselves with the indulgences that many young people in the West pursue - drinking and drugs, sex, other kinds of cheerful hedonism - because their faith tells them those things are sinful. So they seek the purity of a simple cause.

Good points and people worldwide have been pursuing drinking, drugs and sex for thousands of years. Dogma was born out of a need for the elite to control the masses. That's all that this terrorism is - a powerful class (ie. terrorist leaders) taking advantage of suffering to further their own goals and further entrench their own sense of power. Just like back in the middle ages with the crusades etc. What ultimately pulled people out of that was the industrial revolution creating more of a meritocracy and eventually better standard of living for all.

Fully admit that I'm getting way out of my depth here though. All I would really say is that it's my personal belief that if everyone in the world had socially supportive societies, good education systems, good healthcare systems and economic opportunities terrorism wouldn't exist (or wayyyyy less prevalent).

[polak]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

There isn't any correlation between poverty and terrorism. A great many terrorists are middle-class, and most of the world's most impoverished countries do not foster terrorism.

Any data on this?

Cause I think the majority of these terrorist movements come from impoverished places and then grow to the point where they attract other disenfranchised individuals.

[nik-]

We would see way more terrorism from Central America and parts of Asia if that were the case.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by heep223

I don't disagree with most of that. That was my best effort at explaining because I can't for the life of me figure out what should be done. Yes that liberalism has led us here ok, but shouldn't we continue to see it through? To support global societies in developing their version of what we have? Most people in the non-western world want their own version of what we have. I don't know what the answer is or what to do.

As to the bolded above, it's the only thing that you said that I may disagree with. There has always been a huge amount of anger and anxiety and war in the world. It's just more visible and accessible now. As much as you hear about rising inequality, you don't hear that the world's standard of living has been steadily rising for the past 100 years and the number of global citizens living in abject poverty has also been dropping significantly. It's hard to see sometimes especially on days like today, but I firmly believe the world was a better place in 1900 than in 1800, in 1950 than in 1900, in 2000 than in 1950 and in 2016 than in 2000.

I don't disagree, and what you are saying was certainly widely accepted in the post-Cold War era - Fukuyama's End of History and all that. However, in the intervening years since, we have seen the rise of nationalism - again - not only in places like the Balkans, but across Europe, and finally, in North America. This is with rapidly declining levels of poverty, disease, hunger etc... So the relationship is not as strong as our historicist narrative (the idea that history is History) says it should be.

[polak]

Originally Posted by nik-

We would see way more terrorism from Central America and parts of Asia if that were the case.

Good point. Still home to some of the most dangerous cities in the world though and that's directly tied to poverty. Just not terrorism-per se.

The type of religion seems to be the issue with that. Islam really does need to get it's s**t together.

[peter12]

Yeah, the only terrorism that came out of Central/South America were the atheist Marxist-Leninist militant movements.

Atheist, polak.

[heep223]

Here's a question for you guys - are the Western educated people (ie. with engineering degrees) that are going to fight for ISIL the ones that are blowing themselves up? Or are they the ones that are going into "management"?

I can guess at the answer but have no idea.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by nik-

We would see way more terrorism from Central America and parts of Asia if that were the case.

Where do you think the Middle East is?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by heep223

Here's a question for you guys - are the Western educated people (ie. with engineering degrees) that are going to fight for ISIL the ones that are blowing themselves up? Or are they the ones that are going into "management"?

I can guess at the answer but have no idea.

There are actually some pretty interesting articles on this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ent-extremism/

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/ma...ab-t.html?_r=0

[polak]

Originally Posted by peter12

Yeah, the only terrorism that came out of Central/South America were the atheist Marxist-Leninist militant movements.

Atheist, polak.

Yeah but you see, terrorism based purely on political movements seems to be more easily squashed. The South American counter terrorism in the 80's and 90's is easily the most successful anti-terror campaign we have seen. Do you think that Peru is just so much better at it then the rest of the world for some reason or do you think it might be because faith based terrorism is a different beast?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Where do you think the Middle East is?

another part of asia

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by nik-

another part of asia

You mean China? The same China where there are 25 million Muslims? Hmmmm your argument just went down the drain.

[nik-]

What?

I'm saying if it were a poverty issue you'd have a lot more terrorists from places like Myanmar, Cambodia, Thailand and the extremely poor countries of Central America.

Awesome job ignoring the context of the conversation though. Down the drain indeed. And China is probably not the example you want to use lol

[peter12]

China has experienced domestic terror threats from its Muslim population, but has employed far more brutal suppression measures.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by nik-

I'm saying if it were a poverty issue you'd have a lot more terrorists from places like Myanmar, Cambodia, Thailand and the extremely poor countries of Central America.

Do those places have a large Muslim population?