Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by wireframe

I'll take a stab at it. Canadian oil is ethical in treatment of workers and local environment but it is a very carbon intensive oil to produce. Getting usable oil out of the oil sands is an order of magnitude more carbon intensive than in Saudi Arabia, where they can basically drill a hole and move on. So, yes, Canada does a better job of regulating and capturing carbon but we also produce a lot more to begin with.



Please don't attack me about this. I understand there are other factors besides carbon intensity.

No attack meant at all, this is the exact type of opinion that needs to be shared for the debate!

This may be true, but for a bounty of factors that are readily apparent, it would be impossible to claim that Saudi Arabia produces oil more ethically than Alberta. Further, the lack of focus on abating emissions in refinement of said oil following the extraction in Saudi Arabia may totally equalize this production profile.

[Torture]

'Most Ethical Oil' is a completely undefined measure that really just means 'We're better than Saudi Arabia'. Show me where oil is measured on it's ethicalness and guess what, you'd probably see the US, Australia, Norway and other first world countries all right up there with Canada.

Is it ethical to emit the 4th highest intensity of carbon dioxide emissions per barrel? I guess it is if you believe Carbon Dioxide to be something to celebrate as essential to human life like the UCP.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...oil_production


And no, we are not the "leading jurisdiction in the world in carbon capture and sequestration". The US captures 5x the amount of CO2 as Canada. Brazil twice as much. We're not bad, but tied for 3rd with Australia doesn't seem to make us the self declared undisputed most ethical oil in the world.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/...ther%20country.
https://www.iea.org/reports/ccus-in-...-opportunities

[DFO]

Originally Posted by wireframe

I'll take a stab at it. Canadian oil is ethical in treatment of workers and local environment but it is a very carbon intensive oil to produce. Getting usable oil out of the oil sands is an order of magnitude more carbon intensive than in Saudi Arabia, where they can basically drill a hole and move on. So, yes, Canada does a better job of regulating and capturing carbon but we also produce a lot more to begin with.



Please don't attack me about this. I understand there are other factors besides carbon intensity.

Not sure we can say SA has been less intensive when factoring in the insane amount of gas flaring they’ve done historically.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Sorry, but what the #### are you talking about?

Telling people facts can indeed be considered teaching if we are being pedantic.

I think you are hung up on whether or not this is indeed a fact. I can tell you that based on substantial comparison of our region to other global production clusters, we have a strong comparative ESG performance, which I would equate to being "ethical".

“Telling is the feeding of information without any real background of what students are doing or why. Teaching is giving context, explaining the “why” and “how” of what you want students to know.”

https://coachfromthecouch.com/2023/04/28/teach-vs-tell/


Because this is clearly disputable, it's a good opportunity to teach critical thought, and not take what the government tells you as fact.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Maybe? I dunno, given the negatives around oil I don't think it's great to be trumpeting it, even if we are the best. I'm sure many indigenous would scoff at that(particularly those downstream form the oilsands) so having it be taught to their children in school may even feel like a bit of a kick to the face. The reality is, it's completely unnecessarily.

Our country is one of the few on earth where indigenous peoples are even given the breath at which to scoff at resource development.

I need you to be honest with yourself here, are you willing to forgo modern heating, electricity, plastics (healthcare included) and other chemicals that are produced using canadian oil? Primarily, the alternative will come from a region with much less stringent requirements and enforcement.

That's the only choice, we can't just stop producing oil and hope everyone will do the same. They certainly will not, the only thing that will happen is that the production will be offset with more economical production. The transition is a slow march, there's a heavy element of economic realism involved. Ultimately, we are afforded a significant increase in our quality of life due to having industrialized with easy energy sources. We cant impose restrictions of use on these sources on people in India, indonesia, africa etc without providing an economically similar alternative.

We can't even get our own citizens off of this in the near future. The amount of grid upgrades required to fully electrify for example is mind numbing. Basically economically impossible in the near term. Oil is something we will be living with for a long time, unless you can completely alter human psycology and convince the everyday person to live with far less.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

No attack meant at all, this is the exact type of opinion that needs to be shared for the debate!

This may be true, but for a bounty of factors that are readily apparent, it would be impossible to claim that Saudi Arabia produces oil more ethically than Alberta. Further, the lack of focus on abating emissions in refinement of said oil following the extraction in Saudi Arabia may totally equalize this production profile.

For starters the costs in SA are not comparable. Indian and African slave labor means it is wicked efficient on a $/boe basis. We have those pesky OH&S rules and benefits and safety rules.

I know a guy who is a sulfur recovery gas plant expert. Comes back from the middle east and he said it is insane what they are allowed to poorly flare there. We are like 99.5% recovery and that 0.5% flared is taxed like a whore (as it should be). You can taste the air over there. Acrid oxygen, bleeding noses, runny eyes.

Its like needing a position paper on the holocaust actually happening, except less debatable if thats possible.

Ethical is a stupid term to apply to industrial processes to begin with.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by Torture

'Most Ethical Oil' is a completely undefined measure that really just means 'We're better than Saudi Arabia'. Show me where oil is measured on it's ethicalness and guess what, you'd probably see the US, Australia, Norway and other first world countries all right up there with Canada.

Is it ethical to emit the 4th highest intensity of carbon dioxide emissions per barrel? I guess it is if you believe Carbon Dioxide to be something to celebrate as essential to human life like the UCP.
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...oil_production


And no, we are not the "leading jurisdiction in the world in carbon capture and sequestration". The US captures 5x the amount of CO2 as Canada. Brazil twice as much. We're not bad, but tied for 3rd with Australia doesn't seem to make us the self declared undisputed most ethical oil in the world.
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/sp/...ther%20country.
https://www.iea.org/reports/ccus-in-...-opportunities

We lead in per capita production sequestration. Also, that number is slightly underreported based on the publicly available data from Quest and ACTL alone last year.

It may be ethical when you consider other factors.

[SebC]

I'm pretty vocally anti-UCP and progressive, but is it really such a bad idea to educate future voters as to how the bills for the likes of healthcare and education are paid?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Our country is one of the few on earth where indigenous peoples are even given the breath at which to scoff at resource development.

I need you to be honest with yourself here, are you willing to forgo modern heating, electricity, plastics (healthcare included) and other chemicals that are produced using canadian oil? Primarily, the alternative will come from a region with much less stringent requirements and enforcement.

That's the only choice, we can't just stop producing oil and hope everyone will do the same. They certainly will not, the only thing that will happen is that the production will be offset with more economical production. The transition is a slow march, there's a heavy element of economic realism involved. Ultimately, we are afforded a significant increase in our quality of life due to having industrialized with easy energy sources. We cant impose restrictions of use on these sources on people in India, indonesia, africa etc without providing an economically similar alternative.

We can't even get our own citizens off of this in the near future. The amount of grid upgrades required to fully electrify for example is mind numbing. Basically economically impossible in the near term. Oil is something we will be living with for a long time, unless you can completely alter human psycology and convince the everyday person to live with far less.

Woaa, I'm just saying don't tell kids stuff that are facts when they are not. I work in the oil industry, I'm not some delusional tree huger. I recognize the importance of it, but also the drawbacks(which are obviously many). I just think with the decreasing trust in our institutions that make up democracy, maybe stuff like that should be left for the war room, unless they are actually going to make a lesson about it.


And I don't actually think "Indigenous are way worse elsewhere" is a very good defense. OK, so we are better. We are still pretty ####ty to them, and when the oil hits the road, we all know where they stand and who wins.

[Monahammer]

I have 0 confidence that the UCP are going to follow through with this in a responsible or logical way. I think we are likely aligned there.

But I think that this is a very important thing to discuss and learn about for the future prosperity of our province. I am hopeful that teachers can be the responsible translator of this type of information (again putting too much pressure on that part of this system to ensure our future.)

[woob]

Heck, even Ezra Levant wrote a book about Canada's tar sands called Ethical Oil: The Case for Canada's Oil Sands, so we MUST be super ethical!

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

I have 0 confidence that the UCP are going to follow through with this in a responsible or logical way. I think we are likely aligned there.

But I think that this is a very important thing to discuss and learn about for the future prosperity of our province. I am hopeful that teachers can be the responsible translator of this type of information (again putting too much pressure on that part of this system to ensure our future.)

Yes, education around energy security and, you know, where Canada gets it's money from are important to have. Steven Guilbeault could have benefited from stuff like that. But the well has been so poisoned on it by all or nothing(on both sides) it's tough to have that nuanced conversation. It's also kinda rich given how little UCP Conservatives actually care about these things(DEI, ESG, regulations, individual and indigenous rights, not to mention reclamation costs downloaded to the taxpayer), except when it's a benefit, well, it comes of as pretty cynical and eye rolley. Maybe that's why the reaction is there.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by woob

Heck, even Ezra Levant wrote a book about Canada's tar sands called Ethical Oil: The Case for Canada's Oil Sands, so we MUST be super ethical!

He could make oil with his hair and being the greasiest human on earth.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

We lead in per capita production sequestration. Also, that number is slightly underreported based on the publicly available data from Quest and ACTL alone last year.

It may be ethical when you consider other factors.

Sure. We're ethical, fine.
Are we the most ethical oil producer in the world? Cause that's what we're going to be teaching the kids. How are we more ethical than idk, Saskatchewan? The US? Norway? Australia?

My point is that 'the most ethical in the world' is a nonsense undefined measure that we've made up to declare ourselves the bestest ever. Are we one of the better producing jurisdictions? Sure, you can probably make that case. Do we do a lot of things well? Yes. Is there room for improvement and gasp, criticism? Also yes. Like many things, it's nuanced. To just leap to 'we're the most ethical in the world' is self-congratulatory nonsense and propaganda.

I can just imagine the test now:
Which jurisdiction is the most ethical oil producer in the world?
A) Alberta
B) Saskatchewan
C) Saudi Arabia
D) The United States
E) None of the Above

[Julio]

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business...sion-chairman/

This can only lead to good things...

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Julio

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/business...sion-chairman/

This can only lead to good things...

I am sure he is highly qualified

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by Torture

Sure. We're ethical, fine.
Are we the most ethical oil producer in the world? Cause that's what we're going to be teaching the kids. How are we more ethical than idk, Saskatchewan? The US? Norway? Australia?

My point is that 'the most ethical in the world' is a nonsense undefined measure that we've made up to declare ourselves the bestest ever. Are we one of the better producing jurisdictions? Sure, you can probably make that case. Do we do a lot of things well? Yes. Is there room for improvement and gasp, criticism? Also yes. Like many things, it's nuanced. To just leap to 'we're the most ethical in the world' is self-congratulatory nonsense and propaganda.

I can just imagine the test now:
Which jurisdiction is the most ethical oil producer in the world?
A) Alberta
B) Saskatchewan
C) Saudi Arabia
D) The United States
E) None of the Above

I don't think anyone in the oil industry wants this ethical nonsense verbiage any more than you do. If anything it was invented as a defense against some even heavier horsecrap like "social license". Remember that complete and utter garbage.

Sasky, yes much better because they are a little more yeehaw than us. Saudi, not debateable in any way at all. U.S. Joke its even suggested. My American bosses would laugh at the suggestion they are more ethical, its actually a running joke that is why we take 4 times longer and 4 times more $$$ than anything down there does.

BOP's what the hell are those! You can't smoke on the rig floor, what?

[Geraldsh]

BOP’s nobody on the crew laughed when we had to start using those damned things. Trying to bolt them on a low wellhead…it was 40 below and dark all winter then too.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I am sure he is highly qualified

Regardless of his qualifications, this would be a savvy political move for a government that wants to start an APP. Who would (conservative) Albertans trust more than Harper? The 'Who do you trust with your retirement...Harper or Trudeau" ads would write themselves, even though they are meaningless.

[Looch City]

I think we should start marketing our Oil & Gas as not just ethical, but as Progressive as well. We've got a wider diverse workforce, women on rigs, inclusive company policies.

One unknown fact about the oil sands is that after separation, the oil is naturally gluten and GMO free.

It's all part of a unique process perfected in Alberta, nicknamed Woke Injection.