American Politics 3.0 - Back to Brunch

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by rubecube

the Democrats are putting him and Cheney out as being morally righteous for voting for Kamala.

Are they really though? What I'm hearing seems to be along the lines of look, Trump is too morally reprehensible for even this group of swine...

[MoneyGuy]

Originally Posted by dino7c

No former president or vice president endorses Trump...including his own (his current vice candidate called him Hitler)
40 of 43 members of his administration do not endorse him

There is a reason, these people know whats at stake

They’re not just not endorsing him, they all (or most) warning Americans of the danger of another Trump term.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

^ These are very important things to point out. This post can't be repeated enough.

The "but Bush!" posts around here to give cover to Trump are getting a bit irritating. Is Bush running for president? Is Bush in charge of anything anymore? Is Bush relevant anymore? No. This thread is about Harris vs Trump until the results roll in, then it'll be about what happens thereafter. Bush was a massive POS, but he's in the dustbin of history now. And that's exactly where Trump belongs too.

But the thing about Bush/Cheney is that's the start of a lot of this madness with Trump. (Well most really truly awful things in American politics goes back to Reagan but that's a bigger discussion for another time) Bush/Cheney led to the Tea Party, the Tea Party led to types like Cruz and McConnell, which led to Trump, Trump's popularity brought us MTG and Gaetz and Boebert. It's all connected and it goes back to the Bush administration.

Bush/Cheney got the ball rolling on just...ignoring political norms for personal gain. They started wars unjustly, while not bothering to find out how to pay for it. They wrecked the American economy with both wars and short-sighted tax cuts, while also being literal actual war criminals. They skipped over so many political norms that it just became accepted by plenty of people in this country that a government could do whatever it had to do: killing innocents, spying on its own citizens, etc.

The Trump types now look back on those days as when America was strong and protected itself, not the absolute embarrassment it should be seen as.

Let's be very real here: in a lot of ways, 9/11 really did ruin America. It set up distinct battle lines for many Americans, especially conservatives. Not that America didn't have a storied history of racism before that, but 9/11 ratcheted it up to a vastly higher level, and Bush and the GOP's reaction to those attacks has direct correlations to how we've gotten where we are today.

It's really easy to look at the chaos of Trump's 4 years and let recency bias whitewash the disaster that was the Bush presidency, but make no mistake, he was still one of the very worst presidents this country has ever seen, and I would argue that Cheney was far and away the worst VP.

Now mind you, a second Trump term - with the kind of power he would now feel entitled to, what the sycophants he'd surround himself with encourage him to do, with a compromised SCOTUS - could be far worse than the Bush era. But his first term (if only due to his own incompetence and the checks and balances of the adults in the room) wasn't what the Bush administration was.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

But the thing about Bush/Cheney is that's the start of a lot of this madness with Trump. (Well most really truly awful things in American politics goes back to Reagan but that's a bigger discussion for another time) Bush/Cheney led to the Tea Party, the Tea Party led to types like Cruz and McConnell, which led to Trump, Trump's popularity brought us MTG and Gaetz and Boebert. It's all connected and it goes back to the Bush administration.

Bush/Cheney got the ball rolling on just...ignoring political norms for personal gain. They started wars unjustly, while not bothering to find out how to pay for it. They wrecked the American economy with both wars and short-sighted tax cuts, while also being literal actual war criminals. They skipped over so many political norms that it just became accepted by plenty of people in this country that a government could do whatever it had to do: killing innocents, spying on its own citizens, etc.

The Trump types now look back on those days as when America was strong and protected itself, not the absolute embarrassment it should be seen as.

Let's be very real here: in a lot of ways, 9/11 really did ruin America. It set up distinct battle lines for many Americans, especially conservatives. Not that America didn't have a storied history of racism before that, but 9/11 ratcheted it up to a vastly higher level, and Bush and the GOP's reaction to those attacks has direct correlations to how we've gotten where we are today.

It's really easy to look at the chaos of Trump's 4 years and let recency bias whitewash the disaster that was the Bush presidency, but make no mistake, he was still one of the very worst presidents this country has ever seen, and I would argue that Cheney was far and away the worst VP.

Now mind you, a second Trump term - with the kind of power he would now feel entitled to, what the sycophants he'd surround himself with encourage him to do, with a compromised SCOTUS - could be far worse than the Bush era. But his first term (if only due to his own incompetence and the checks and balances of the adults in the room) wasn't what the Bush administration was.

Well yes and no... while you bring up a number of valid points, I think it's a mistake to categorize what Trump is trying to do in terms of simply "better" or "worse" than what Bush did. Trump is doing something fundamentally different from what they did. Trump is trying to completely unravel the US system of government and replace it with a Putin-style or Orban-style dictatorship. Bush never attempted to do any such thing.

There is nothing worse anyone can do (aside from dropping nukes) than dismantling democracy. Because then it means the people no longer have any hope of determining their own destiny. They forever have no choice but to bow their heads and accept whatever fate the God-King has in store for them.

While it's true that Bush and Cheney are war criminals of the highest order, US foreign policy has been filled with psychopathic murderous decisions dating back to the dropping of nukes in WWII. So while Bush and Cheney are moral vacuums, I don't buy into the notion that they began the process of what Trump is trying to do to America with Project 2025. If anything, I'd lay more of the blame on right-wing think tanks (ie: Heritage Foundation) and their right-wing extremist funders.

Racism - still a serious problem, but I think things are far less problematic today than they were during slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

One other thing - Trump putting 3 extremists on the SC helped him lay the groundwork for the death of American democracy, if he were to get a 2nd term. The overturning of Roe and the delaying of Trump's trials is proof that they will not hesitate to do anything he wants them to do.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Trumps extremism and Bush having a different public profile now is making people forget what a moron he was.

[Paulie Walnuts]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1836591025340715267

Audience?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's only relevant because the Democrats are putting him and Cheney out as being morally righteous for voting for Kamala. They aren't good and decent men just because they vote for the right candidate. They're ####ing ghouls who deserve every bit of the vitriol that Kissinger got.

Who cares though now though? Trump might be president in a few months not Bush or Cheney....the idea that you can vote for Harris even if you have strong ideological differences is a good one.

[puffnstuff]

Audience is what he calls the voices in his head gibbering at him

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by rubecube

It's only relevant because the Democrats are putting him and Cheney out as being morally righteous for voting for Kamala. They aren't good and decent men just because they vote for the right candidate. They're ####ing ghouls who deserve every bit of the vitriol that Kissinger got.

The Democrats (writ large) are doing this? I haven’t seen it. Mostly it’s been something like “See, even a warmonger like Cheney thinks Trump is dangerous to America” or words to that effect.
I don’t see everything though.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

Well yes and no... while you bring up a number of valid points, I think it's a mistake to categorize what Trump is trying to do in terms of simply "better" or "worse" than what Bush did. Trump is doing something fundamentally different from what they did. Trump is trying to completely unravel the US system of government and replace it with a Putin-style or Orban-style dictatorship. Bush never attempted to do any such thing.

There is nothing worse anyone can do (aside from dropping nukes) than dismantling democracy. Because then it means the people no longer have any hope of determining their own destiny. They forever have no choice but to bow their heads and accept whatever fate the God-King has in store for them.

While it's true that Bush and Cheney are war criminals of the highest order, US foreign policy has been filled with psychopathic murderous decisions dating back to the dropping of nukes in WWII. So while Bush and Cheney are moral vacuums, I don't buy into the notion that they began the process of what Trump is trying to do to America with Project 2025. If anything, I'd lay more of the blame on right-wing think tanks (ie: Heritage Foundation) and their right-wing extremist funders.

Racism - still a serious problem, but I think things are far less problematic today than they were during slavery, Jim Crow, redlining, etc.

One other thing - Trump putting 3 extremists on the SC helped him lay the groundwork for the death of American democracy, if he were to get a 2nd term. The overturning of Roe and the delaying of Trump's trials is proof that they will not hesitate to do anything he wants them to do.

Bush put Alito on the court so he has 1 of the votes and Roberts also concurred that he was willing to uphold the Mississippi law of no abortions past 15 weeks and essentially said he was unsure on the broader issue. So the Bush appointees have had a strong hand in limiting rights of individuals. Roberts had embraced his role as swing justice when it was 5/4 so I think he was a reasonable appointee but Thomas(Bush 1) and Alito are certainly worse than Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

But the thing about Bush/Cheney is that's the start of a lot of this madness with Trump. (Well most really truly awful things in American politics goes back to Reagan but that's a bigger discussion for another time)

I think you are too generous to the Democrats. Obama came in selling hope, and delivered a politically charged middling 2 terms. He killed Keystone to pander to the enviros, yet built more pipe than any other president. That alienated lots of folks with the hypocrisy. He loved to finger wag. Michelle says she doesn’t trust people “who take too much” but owns a private beach.

Post 2016 the Dems doubled down on calling Trump voters racist. Alienating many voters as bad because they didn’t like Hillary. Trump then delivered on a strong economy which like it or not means a lot to many Americans vs other issues.

Then there is the entitlement and identity politics where Joe Biden feels comfortable saying you aren’t black unless you vote Dem. Appalling.

Like a drain that swirls, both sides have contributed to the downfall. Republicans have led sure, but Dems have followed in their own way.

Its sadly caused a circle of division.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I think you are too generous to the Democrats. Obama came in selling hope, and delivered a politically charged middling 2 terms. He killed Keystone to pander to the enviros, yet built more pipe than any other president. That alienated lots of folks with the hypocrisy. He loved to finger wag. Michelle says she doesn’t trust people “who take too much” but owns a private beach.

Post 2016 the Dems doubled down on calling Trump voters racist. Alienating many voters as bad because they didn’t like Hillary. Trump then delivered on a strong economy which like it or not means a lot to many Americans vs other issues.

Then there is the entitlement and identity politics where Joe Biden feels comfortable saying you aren’t black unless you vote Dem. Appalling.

Like a drain that swirls, both sides have contributed to the downfall. Republicans have led sure, but Dems have followed in their own way.

Its sadly caused a circle of division.

That's enough Fox News for you.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by GGG

Bush put Alito on the court so he has 1 of the votes and Roberts also concurred that he was willing to uphold the Mississippi law of no abortions past 15 weeks and essentially said he was unsure on the broader issue. So the Bush appointees have had a strong hand in limiting rights of individuals. Roberts had embraced his role as swing justice when it was 5/4 so I think he was a reasonable appointee but Thomas(Bush 1) and Alito are certainly worse than Gorsuch and Kavanaugh.

I guess my point is I don't think the rot began on 9/11. I think it began with the death of FDR and the dropping of the bombs on Japan.

Bush/Cheney did a ton of damage. But they were the continuation of the rot, not the beginning of it.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I think you are too generous to the Democrats. Obama came in selling hope, and delivered a politically charged middling 2 terms. He killed Keystone to pander to the enviros, yet built more pipe than any other president. That alienated lots of folks with the hypocrisy. He loved to finger wag. Michelle says she doesn’t trust people “who take too much” but owns a private beach.

Post 2016 the Dems doubled down on calling Trump voters racist. Alienating many voters as bad because they didn’t like Hillary. Trump then delivered on a strong economy which like it or not means a lot to many Americans vs other issues.

Then there is the entitlement and identity politics where Joe Biden feels comfortable saying you aren’t black unless you vote Dem. Appalling.

Like a drain that swirls, both sides have contributed to the downfall. Republicans have led sure, but Dems have followed in their own way.

Its sadly caused a circle of division.

Trump absolutely did not "deliver" on strong economy.

Trump inherited a borderline miracle recovery from Obama and benefited from the policies set in place before him at the start of his term, then tanked the federal budget with his massive tax cuts that turbocharged the wealth disparity which is one of the many reasons the middle class now struggle to buy the necessary assets with investment value aka houses. His mismanagement of the economy was unfortunately covered by covid, which he also completely mismanaged creating historical unemployment rates and just ridiculously ballooning deficit

For comparison, here in Finland we actually had an overall job growth even during covid, because we had a government that (despite some pretty bad misteps) overall handled the situation extremely competently. (We also had a much more difficult situation, as our economy had an additional hit from the Russo-Ukrainian war that stopped our trade with Russia.)

The massive covid unemployment disaster that you suffered under Trumps leadership was not unique to you, but was also very much NOT a universal or unavoidable phenomenon

Americans just think it was just the covid because you never compare what happened to you to what's going on elsewhere to see how others did in similar situations. Without covid creating exceptional circumstances as an excuse, no one would think Trump was anything but a disaster for the overall US economy. His only interest remains making himself and his billionaire backers even richer.

It's the same reason why really only in the US there's a debate over the effectiveness of Bidens economic policies. Most of the rest of the world took a look at what the Democrats did under Biden and went "oh boy, wish we did that, it's been rough".

(Sure, comparisons between differently nations are never perfect, but it's still very often quite informative.)

Democrats have plenty of faults, but they are honestly fantastic when it comes to overall economic policy. That's actually a major reason why foreig leaders tend to heavily favor Democrats winning over Republicans; under Democrats the economy US economy tends to do very well, and that has a tendency to directly help the global economy.

Clinton was a scumbag and Obama was the Drone Bomber, but they really did deliver on economy, as did Biden. Trump on the other hand created a lot of global economic instability with his trade wars and his chaotic and unpredictable foreign policies, and that instability hurt everyone.

[GGG]

For the most part the economy is not affected by the sitting president.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by wittynickname

But the thing about Bush/Cheney is that's the start of a lot of this madness with Trump. (Well most really truly awful things in American politics goes back to Reagan but that's a bigger discussion for another time) Bush/Cheney led to the Tea Party, the Tea Party led to types like Cruz and McConnell, which led to Trump, Trump's popularity brought us MTG and Gaetz and Boebert. It's all connected and it goes back to the Bush administration.

The Tea Party was basically a rebellion against the Bush era Republican party and they did all they could to cleanse the party of anyone in that circle.

The Tea Party gave us Sarah Palin and the other un-serious political characters that paved the way for Trump. The Tea Party tried to stop Trump from being the nominee, but once he won they joined forces.

Yeah, the Bush admin was evil in their international meddling, but Trump and the tea party are pretty much diametrically opposed to that era of Republican governing, and are full down the American isolationism path.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by GGG

For the most part the economy is not affected by the sitting president.

Yes, and no. If the government is going to intervene economically, its role should be to curb the peaks and valleys of the economy with the goal of steady growth long term.

If a government inherits a roaring economy, they should be looking for over-heating signs and work to contain those.

If you add fire to a roaring economy like Trump did, then yeah you can make the economy look even better while you are in office, but we're going to all pay for it down the road probably when the next guy takes over.

[Mathgod]

Now 64/36

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...ction-forecast

Please please let this be real and not just false hope...

[Coach]

Man I'm really tired of polls. That's all the news is is random polls and commenting on said poll. Like, the logistics of realistically polling enough actual people in the numbers necessary to give statistically significant results, and to be able to update that daily to me is just nonsense. It's obviously just extrapolation based on a few small data sets. It's just made to give pundits something to talk about "+/-5 points today and why?"

Only one poll actually matters and I wish the focus would be on actually voting and not predicting the vote. Like why even try? Just to try and be right? There will be an actual poll of the American people, we don't need guess work leading up to it.

[Cube Inmate]

#LieToPollsters! If enough people do it, the data will be meaningless and we can focus on issues instead of what Cletus in Cleveland thinks.

And don't just answer with the opposite of how you really feel... be random and unpredictable. Today, I think I'll be a rabid 2nd amendment fanatic planning to vote for Kennedy so he can implement a national fossil fuel ban.