[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

If you've been watching what's been happening around North America I think you and everyone else on the "no tax payer money" train is going to be severely upset. Every stadium/arena built in the last 10 years has had public money behind it, even for the Cowboys and Yankees. The problem is once you have an outdated building you're at the bottom percentile for potential earnings relative to your peers. If the home city doesn't want to pay for it there is always another municipality that doesn't have a team that will build you one. It's happening right now with Kansas City for the NBA and LA for the NFL. Owners are going to try and get the best deal for them, I'm sure you would too if you owned a team.

I'm not saying I support/agree with this I'm just saying how it is.

This is either going to end with the city coughing up some money or the Flames relocating.

hahaha. That "We'll move" threat is adorable, it really is.
Firstly, the Flames will move, and fracture the CSE? I imagine, that'll bode well for the Hitmen, Stampeders and Roughnecks.

Secondly, and amusingly, the backdraft of the Flames moving, will be so swift that a new ownership will fill that void like industrial suction.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Cappy

East village is working out pretty great thanks to the city and CMLC. I would trust them to do that again. No proposal for a mall.

Year round? come on. We know that isn't true. The numbers in between games will be insignificant to sustain an entire area.

World class city? there it is. The PRESTIGE. how is that working for Edmonton? there arena is really nice. It will be one of the nicest in the NHL. Are we ready to start calling it world class. Buildings do not make a city world class. That is 1930's thinking.

That is debatable. The LA Live area is nothing but buildings. With a future stadium likely being being built, world class is an apt term in my opinion.

Spoiler!

[Art Vandelay]

I dont hate the idea of the shared Stadium / Fieldhouse being part of the project. I just feel its being shoehorned into a bad spot between the Bow Trails. I doesn't seem like the kinda place I'd want to spend time before and after the game. The arena better be something spectacular.

I hope we can get some decent specs/drawings soon.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

That is debatable. The LA Live area is nothing but buildings. With a future stadium likely being being built, world class is an apt term in my opinion.

Spoiler!

LA is already considered a "World Class City" and and if you ask anyone on the street, they would not say LA Live is the reason.

No one says New York because of Yankee Stadium. No one says Miami because of the Marlins Park.

Do you know where Paris St. Germain Plays? me neither.

[CroFlames]

Yes I do know where PSG play, but I also understand your point.

The problem is Calgary is 1/10th the age of those cities. So they need to start somewhere when it comes to being world class. Why not start with world class sports facilities and see where that leads.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes I do know where PSG play, but I also understand your point.

The problem is Calgary is 1/10th the age of those cities. So they need to start somewhere when it comes to being world class. Why not start with world class sports facilities and see where that leads.

That is a great idea. I'm not advocating against our sports facilites being "world class". I would just argue that the taxpayers pay a minimal amount of the overall tab.

Im also saying that this isn't the first developer to offer "world class" venues in an effort to sell the project. People buy it up all the time, but I don't think it changes anything. Are we going to start thinking of Edmonton in a different light?

I think we can all admit that we are no where near a world class city at the moment. I know it sucks to say, and I love this city, but its not like we are a go-to destination, even when compared to newer cities like Calgary. An arena is not going to change that, nor will it put us in that conversation, which is why the world class argument is so hollow.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Druh Farrell speaks:

http://www.calgary.ca/councillors/wa...good-idea.aspx

• Who pays for the contamination cleanup? The cleanup of creosote contaminated land in the West Village is not included in the sticker price. The City does not have the funding for the cleanup.
Provincial, Federal, City, needs to be done eventually
• While a public multi-sport fieldhouse is high on the City’s list of priorities, it is currently unfunded.
True but, why not? if it is such a high priority....
• CalgaryNEXT would require a large investment in transportation and utilities infrastructure, in addition to the $900 million price-tag, investments that have yet to be investigated and are currently unfunded.
Agreed, Crow Bow is a mess. They did Glenmore/Mcleod and Crowchild Bow should be a high priority anyways.
• Coupled with the contamination clean-up, the final price tag could exceed $1.5 billion.
Agreed
• Value of land was not included in the $900 million estimate. The City would forego future tax revenues and money from the sale of the land.
How significant is the current tax revenues from 3 car dealerships and a bus depot? Won't condo's and office building's over time be much greater. And, the city would own the land.... in 50 years or so they will realized a massive source of revenue should they decide to sell it.
• A Community Revitalization Levy (CRL) is basically a loan on future tax revenue, generated within a fixed boundary. Can the West Village generate sufficient CRL tax dollars required to fund the redevelopment of West Village plus an arena?
CMLC should have a decent idea...
• Community Revitalization Levies can be high-risk ventures. To mitigate risk, a CRL needs a stable financial anchor. For example, the Bow Tower, the financial anchor for East Village (Rivers District), generates $22 million in property taxes per year. When the CRL expires, the taxes will go to general revenue. Currently the Saddledome does not pay property taxes. Where will the tax revenue come from to pay for the CRL?
From the future development! And saying the Bow is in east village is a crock. Very creative boundary they came up with to use the bow revenue's to call the east village a success.
• The Saddledome is obsolete after 32 years. Will the life of the “mortgage” for the arena - the CRL - exceed the life of the arena?
I just don't see the useful life of this arena being less than 50 years.. This is a stretch and the two are not comparable
• The futures of the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium remain unclear. The vitality of the Calgary Stampede, a cultural jewel in the City, has also not been fully considered. It is not the Flames job to ensure the vitality of the Stampede. And she is admitting that the Flames are indeed a benefit to the city of Calgary

[heep223]

Originally Posted by New Era

I view this "the City can do do it" crap as building a massive complex shopping and entertainment area without an anchor tenant. You tell me how successful projects are without that anchor tenant? This project guarantees a steady flow of traffic year round, which will drive businesses into the area. Without that, it's status quo. The other problem I see is small town thinking by small town people. Calgary wants to be a world class city, but doesn't want to make the investments to do so. Until that mentality changes, nothing else changes. I didn't realize that until I moved away but it is true. Too many people without vision.

Yeah....if you want to see what happens to an area without an anchor tenant, take a look at Eau Claire.

Hint - it's not good

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Yes I do know where PSG play, but I also understand your point.

The problem is Calgary is 1/10th the age of those cities. So they need to start somewhere when it comes to being world class. Why not start with world class sports facilities and see where that leads.

800 million reasons why and a stunted East Village.

[Jordan!]

Calgary is not world class though, and probably never will be.

It's amazing to me how nobody knows where it is. I see it as world class because I grew up there and saw it grow (Outside of the past 6 years anyway) so I am shocked to see that nobody knows anything about the city that I am from.

Vancouver and Toronto and to a lesser level Montreal are the only world class cities in Canada.

[TX_Flame]

Originally Posted by Parallex

That's not the right way to look at it... you have to look at it compared to theorhetical alternative development plans not the state at present.

Considering alternative development plans have yielded nothing for decades, comparing it to the state at present is much more realistic.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Calgary is not world class though, and probably never will be.

It's amazing to me how nobody knows where it is. I see it as world class because I grew up there and saw it grow (Outside of the past 6 years anyway) so I am shocked to see that nobody knows anything about the city that I am from.

Vancouver and Toronto and to a lesser level Montreal are the only world class cities in Canada.

As much as I don't like Toronto it's truly the only city Canada has that can be considered world class, in that you could put up in the discussion with a New York or Paris or Tokyo in terms of everything that is there. Vancouver and Montreal are a level or two below but I think Calgary can get to that level or close in time.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by RM14

• Who pays for the contamination cleanup? The cleanup of creosote contaminated land in the West Village is not included in the sticker price. The City does not have the funding for the cleanup.
Provincial, Federal, City, needs to be done eventually
• While a public multi-sport fieldhouse is high on the City’s list of priorities, it is currently unfunded.
True but, why not? if it is such a high priority....
• CalgaryNEXT would require a large investment in transportation and utilities infrastructure, in addition to the $900 million price-tag, investments that have yet to be investigated and are currently unfunded.
Agreed, Crow Bow is a mess. They did Glenmore/Mcleod and Crowchild Bow should be a high priority anyways.
• Coupled with the contamination clean-up, the final price tag could exceed $1.5 billion.
Agreed
• Value of land was not included in the $900 million estimate. The City would forego future tax revenues and money from the sale of the land.
How significant is the current tax revenues from 3 car dealerships and a bus depot? Won't condo's and office building's over time be much greater. And, the city would own the land.... in 50 years or so they will realized a massive source of revenue should they decide to sell it.
• A Community Revitalization Levy (CRL) is basically a loan on future tax revenue, generated within a fixed boundary. Can the West Village generate sufficient CRL tax dollars required to fund the redevelopment of West Village plus an arena?
CMLC should have a decent idea...
• Community Revitalization Levies can be high-risk ventures. To mitigate risk, a CRL needs a stable financial anchor. For example, the Bow Tower, the financial anchor for East Village (Rivers District), generates $22 million in property taxes per year. When the CRL expires, the taxes will go to general revenue. Currently the Saddledome does not pay property taxes. Where will the tax revenue come from to pay for the CRL?
From the future development! And saying the Bow is in east village is a crock. Very creative boundary they came up with to use the bow revenue's to call the east village a success.
• The Saddledome is obsolete after 32 years. Will the life of the “mortgage” for the arena - the CRL - exceed the life of the arena?
I just don't see the useful life of this arena being less than 50 years.. This is a stretch and the two are not comparable
• The futures of the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium remain unclear. The vitality of the Calgary Stampede, a cultural jewel in the City, has also not been fully considered. It is not the Flames job to ensure the vitality of the Stampede. And she is admitting that the Flames are indeed a benefit to the city of Calgary

- True. They should pay. But good luck on the Flames for trying to further that process along. But, if the Flames want the land so bad....
- It probably isn't as high of a priority as many other issues the city faces.
- I believe she means future revenue once the area is redeveloped, which has been planned. The city gains zero revenue from this project and it takes away a large part of the land. The area is close to DT and will see a boom once its developed (after EV)... it doesn't need a stadium to develop. Its been discussed that the city owning the building is a big liability and a depreciating asset. Also, the city loses its ability to deal with that land for atleast 30 years.
- CMLC cannot predict the amount of development and tax dollars that flow from proposed development - also this is public funding.
- What leads you to believe this building will last 50 years? few stadiums do.
- It is not the Flames job to consider the Stampede. but it certainly is the city's.

[Flacker]

"The futures of the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium remain unclear. The vitality of the Calgary Stampede, a cultural jewel in the City, has also not been fully considered."

This quote bothers me. What is the deemed cultural value of the Calgary Flames? To this Calgarian, the Flames mean a lot more to me, than the Stampede. I've also taken a long hard look at what kind of special treatment the Stampede Board gets from every city council. Are the Stampede Board a private entity?

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Calgary is not world class though, and probably never will be.

It's amazing to me how nobody knows where it is. I see it as world class because I grew up there and saw it grow (Outside of the past 6 years anyway) so I am shocked to see that nobody knows anything about the city that I am from.

Vancouver and Toronto and to a lesser level Montreal are the only world class cities in Canada.

According to the Coalition of Global Cities, Canada has no world class cities
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thisisthat/c...list-1.1747946

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Flacker

"The futures of the Saddledome and McMahon Stadium remain unclear. The vitality of the Calgary Stampede, a cultural jewel in the City, has also not been fully considered."

This quote bothers me. What is the deemed cultural value of the Calgary Flames? To this Calgarian, the Flames mean a lot more to me, than the Stampede. I've also taken a long hard look at what kind of special treatment the Stampede Board gets from every city council. Are the Stampede Board a private entity?

Not for profit.

http://corporate.calgarystampede.com/ar2014/ar2014.pdf

[#-3]

All things considered, I think it was exciting to finally see a presentation with a clear image of what is happening, but what I saw was a little disappointing. With the amount of time the Flames have spent exploring this I somehow expect them to come out with a more polished final design and a more reasonable funding plan.

I foresee years of fighting about money ahead of us, and I don't like it but I have a feeling the Flames will eventually win. I get them incorporating community facilities to rope the city in, but

I feel like if the Flames were offering to front half the money, and scrapped the CRL plan this could be a 4-5 year thing. Them offer to pay about 20% and looking for tax money from 4 different places will drag this out for 2 or 3 extra years.

I kinda hoped we would avoid the whole mess Edmonton got into, but that just isn't realistic.

[Flacker]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Not for profit.

http://corporate.calgarystampede.com/ar2014/ar2014.pdf

Where does the revenue end up?

I see community investment listed on their financials, if that is indeed the case and they are managed well, i rescind my rant.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

hahaha. That "We'll move" threat is adorable, it really is.
Firstly, the Flames will move, and fracture the CSE? I imagine, that'll bode well for the Hitmen, Stampeders and Roughnecks.

Secondly, and amusingly, the backdraft of the Flames moving, will be so swift that a new ownership will fill that void like industrial suction.

I disagree. Right now expansion fees are insane. Plus an expansion franchise is very much a poor product right away. It took the Jets 20 years to get their franchise and that was a league decision to move them from Winnipeg to begin with. Chapman needed 150 million in a relocation fee plus the cost of the franchise. If Winnipeg had a poor barn that generated poor revenue, 500 million dollars is a massive risk. For years, hockey team owners were handing over the keys left and right.

Imagine if Calgary snubs an NHL owner. You think the league will reward the city with another franchise anytime soon? The biggest sales pitch that the league has when selling it's franchise is that it has all the leverage. There's no way they would let cities control them.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Flacker

Where does the revenue end up? Is my gate admission tax deductible? A flagrant abuse of the term.

Check the financials I included. Revenues go towards many things.

Important to note about the Board:

The purpose of Calgary Exhibition and Stampede Limited (“Calgary Stampede”) is to preserve and celebrate western heritage, cultures and community spirit. The Calgary Stampede is incorporated under the Companies Act of Alberta as a not-for-profit organization and is exempt from income taxes under the Canadian Income Tax Act. The directors of the Calgary Stampede are elected or appointed volunteers who cannot be paid in any form for their services under its by-laws. The shareholders of the Calgary Stampede, who are also volunteers, cannot receive any dividends, nor can the shares appreciate in value. Shares can neither be sold nor held by persons outside of the province of Alberta nor in the estates of deceased shareholders.

I truly think the best place to build an arena to service everyone's interest is on the Stampede grounds