How many people here believe in God, Heaven and angels, Hell and Satan and his demons

[driveway]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't understand this point at all. This is the case with everything and everyone.

I think what Cheese is trying to say is that religious knowledge should be different from other kinds of knowledge, if it is to have a reasonable claim on being the 'Capital T' Truth.

It's all well and good for everyday knowledge and scientific knowledge to be taught and learned, but if a religion is to make a claim on being the Truth, it should be the kind of knowledge that is inherent, or can arrive inherently into a person without that person being introduced to it.

Basically the argument is that, if you go off into the mountains by yourself and think about things long and hard, whatever revelations you end up with are going to be more likely True than what other people tell you is True.

I don't think I agree with the argument, but I'm pretty sure that's what the argument is, in a very basic sense.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Knalus

My issue was with your point about "most people". Most people believe what is easy, sure - but that doesn't mean what they believe is incorrect (or correct). You made it sound like "most people" were morons - because they believe what is easiest. Then you say they're smart, because they agree with you. It's easy to believe something everyone says is proven, right? Even if it's gravity?


It appears your problem isn't with people believing what they are taught, but rather with what they have been taught. That doesn't change anything about the underlying truth to any of these arguments. Your approach is argumentative, without being substantive. It leads to even harsher words being spoken later. So what if people believe or don't believe in ghosts? Does that change the existence of the ghost?

Please dont put words in my mouth. I never suggested that people were morons...or insinuated that they were. I simply suggested that people are taught to be theistic...it is not ingrained by birth.

I think "Most People " who believe, do so, because they have been programmed to do so. Its akin to teaching your baby from the first moment of recognition that the Calgary Flames/Stampeders/Roughnecks are the best teams bar none in the world. Even when they begin to question the standard monotheistic choice of their parents/family they hang on to the "there must be something else" theory. Its ingrained. Thats usually the "Spiritual" side of things...agnostically speaking; not wanting to make a choice for fear of the unknown.

You can teach your kids anything you want, its your choice. I stand on the side that suggests teaching your children lies is paramount to child abuse. We at least tell our kids after they reach a certain age that Santa and the Easter Bunny arent real...if the kids havent figured it out themselves. Most kids question religion in the same way, "The Ark story, Jonah and the Whale, Adam and Eve", yet our parents firmly respond to these as factual or reality based events.
Tell your kids fables to make a point...nothing wrong with that, as long as it is clear you are not talking about actual events. "eg. The Little Boy who Cried Wolf".

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cheese

All fantastic questions that Im not about to attempt an answer. I am ignorant of what you ask. I do know that Gravity works....we do not float off this planet into outerspace. Gravity in all its complexity exists and is quantifiable.
Im sure some of our scientific folk will be glad to help you answer some of these questions...if at all possible.

Heh, actually really there is no scientific answer as to the why questions... science observes what, but cannot answer why. It can find that things are a result of other things, but it always leads to an infinite regress.

We can ask what causes gravity, and find it is a result of mass bending space and time. Why does mass to bend space and time? We can find out about the interaction of the Higgs boson with the Higgs field and baryons or something, but then we can ask why do those things interact the way they do? Someone will find out about strings or fluctuations in the vacuum field or some other thing, but the why question will always remain. EDIT: The why question is meaningless really, at least to me. Like asking what's north of the north pole.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't understand this point at all. This is the case with everything and everyone.

Yes..exactly. Thats the point to the question. How can you feel "something is right" without having something or someone lead you to that pre-supposition in the first place? African Tribes had no idea of the Christian teachings before the missionaries showed up.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by photon

Heh, actually really there is no scientific answer as to the why questions... science observes what, but cannot answer why. ... the why question will always remain.

Correct me if I misunderstand, but wouldn't the Grand Unification Theory, should it ever be elucidated, be the "why" answer that science may actually be able to provide?

Granted it would also be the ultimate "how", but an equation, or series thereof, which was able to encompass all phenomenon (not just all known, but ALL) would be the final answer to the question of why.

Eg:
Why has life evolved on this planet? Because x= blah blah blah divided by Jarome Iginla + awesome, etc.

(I can only assume that Jarome Iginla will be the denomenator in the Grand Unification Theory)

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I stand on the side that suggests teaching your children lies is paramount to child abuse.

That, sir, is a point of view that is rapidly making the world more partisan, intrusive, and intolerant. It's making the world a worse place.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Knalus

That, sir, is a point of view that is rapidly making the world more partisan, intrusive, and intolerant. It's making the world a worse place.

Maybe you can explain yourself further, after all you expect the same from me.
Am I to assume by your words that teaching lies makes one tolerant, accepting and non partisan?

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

when you boil it right down, every religion has about as much credibility as Scientology, everyone's favorite whipping post

This is a close second for making the world a worse place to live. It's real fun to mock people's beliefs, isn't it? Feel big now, I assume? What did that win you, making a post like this? Respect? Bonus points? An intellectual leg-up on the discussion? Now I can see why it seemed surprising to other posters yesterday that the site was civil - posts like this weren't around. See that? People were proud this wasn't here. But you thought you should put it up anyways.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe you can explain yourself further, after all you expect the same from me.
Am I to assume by your words that teaching lies makes one tolerant, accepting and non partisan?

You don't find the word "child abuse" inflammatory?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

simple...because if someone hadnt told you...you wouldnt know. Once someone has "introduced" you to anything...sports, religion, sex, you decide from that point where to take it. It can be completely ingrained, a fanatic, or on the fringes.

I've also been taught there is no God. Soooo....

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Knalus

This is a close second for making the world a worse place to live. It's real fun to mock people's beliefs, isn't it? Feel big now, I assume? What did that win you, making a post like this? Respect? Bonus points? An intellectual leg-up on the discussion? Now I can see why it seemed surprising to other posters yesterday that the site was civil - posts like this weren't around. See that? People were proud this wasn't here. But you thought you should put it up anyways.

Relax. This is a discussion, which are never any fun without a little edge.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe you can explain yourself further, after all you expect the same from me.
Am I to assume by your words that teaching lies makes one tolerant, accepting and non partisan?

"Teaching children lies" is the core of the disagreement between the two of you.

If someone believes something to be true and teaches their children, they aren't lying. When the truth is exposed and it doesn't allign with the teachings, that's just a mistake. totally different.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Knalus

It's real fun to mock people's beliefs, isn't it?

Simply because a person believes something is no reason to respect that belief. If someone believes something stupid, that belief deserves to be mocked because, by believing it, that person is slowing down the forward progress of humanity as a whole.

Also, it's not hard to see the humour in Hemi-Cuda's post. Even someone who believes in the literal truth of the bible should be able to recognize some of the more outlandish aspects of their belief and have a good chuckle at what is a very funny way to phrase them.

What causes threads like these to derail is not people posting funny jpegs, but knee-jerk reactions and needless personal attacks.

[alltherage]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

Relax. This is a discussion, which are never any fun without a little edge.

Actually, I don't agree that that's a little edge. That's downright offensive to Christians.

Originally Posted by driveway

Simply because a person believes something is no reason to respect that belief. If someone believes something stupid, that belief deserves to be mocked because, by believing it, that person is slowing down the forward progress of humanity as a whole.

Also, it's not hard to see the humour in Hemi-Cuda's post. Even someone who believes in the literal truth of the bible should be able to recognize some of the more outlandish aspects of their belief and have a good chuckle at what is a very funny way to phrase them.

What causes threads like these to derail is not people posting funny jpegs, but knee-jerk reactions and needless personal attacks.

Actually, mocking people for their beliefs breeds hate. Do you openly mock children who believe in Santa Clause? What's in it for you in the first place... are you not actually seeking a knee jerk reaction when you post something this inflamitory?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Knalus

You don't find the word "child abuse" inflammatory?

Of course Child Abuse is "inflammatory".

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by alltherage

"Teaching children lies" is the core of the disagreement between the two of you.

If someone believes something to be true and teaches their children, they aren't lying. When the truth is exposed and it doesn't allign with the teachings, that's just a mistake. totally different.

One could take this further to say that the possibility exists that there is a God, and as such, anyone who teaches their child that there isn't one, is also guilty in Cheese's eyes of child abuse.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I've also been taught there is no God. Soooo....

Soooooo...later on in life someone else taught you there was. You then decided to choose and choose how you believe.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by alltherage

Actually, I don't agree that that's a little edge. That's downright offensive to Christians.

Meh. I could show this to many, many people who have some sort of Christian faith and they'd find it funny if they hadn't already seen it. Anyone with a solid faith will not be shaken by that whatsoever. It's funny to think what Christianity would be viewed as by outsider.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

One could take this further to say that the possibility exists that there is a God, and as such, anyone who teaches their child that there isn't one, is also guilty in Cheese's eyes of child abuse.

The "possibility" needs to be justified in some way. Like the Gravity discussion.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Soooooo...later on in life someone else taught you there was. You then decided to choose and choose how you believe.

I figured out what felt right in my heart. The point is that I don't believe or trust because someone 'told me to'.

Originally Posted by Cheese

Religion...any religion cannot be quantified. You must "believe or trust" that it exists because a cleric "says so".

Which is what you said.

Not being religious is about just as much trust or faith. You aren't concerned about your afterlife or don't believe in one, that's fine. Just as many people out there 'telling me' that there isn't a God. I would then have to believe or trust that because someone 'told me to', no? Goes both ways.