How many people here believe in God, Heaven and angels, Hell and Satan and his demons

[evilcougar]

Whew! I started reading this and there were 5 pages, and everytime i went to the next page there were 2 more!
I believe everything happens for a reason, and i believe you are what you make of yourself. I also believe that only YOU can change your life.
For example, i know people who have been abused in some fashion or another, weather it be sexual or physical or mental. They have been able to deal and overcome their tragic experiences and make a very happy life for themselves and also use those tragic events to overcome other obstacles in life.

However, i also know people who've had the same things happen to them, and they continue to live out their days as victims, thinking the world owes them and they've been wronged.

So, i believe that there is some kind of higher being up there, but, i am skeptical to call it GOD. My dad and my stepmom are very religious Christians, and that is how i was raised, however, i find all of the stories in the bible to be somewhat far fetched.

In conclusion, i think there's something out there, i'm not sure what it is, but strongly believe everything happens for a reason, but again only you can control you/change you and your life.
You are what you make of yourself.

I also don't go to church, haven't since i moved out when i was 17, and don't plan to ever return for any reason....unless i'm attending a wedding or a funeral.

[Antithesis]

I almost pressed "Goblins". Here is my attempt at an explanation that is probably not all that interesting:

I think Organized Religion can be a beautiful thing for some people, but it is unnecessary and not welcome for me.

When I think of the existence or lack of existence of a god or gods, I come back to the following things, without meaning to sound snarky or dismissive:

1. "God" can not be all of all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-caring. Two of the three, but not as advertised by some churches.

2. I don't think a god exists with every day concerns about us and our doings.

3. I find the idea that all of existence could be just some sort of random accident to be somewhat disquieting; if there is some type of creator, then that is exactly what I think "God" is ... created and sat back.

Faith has led to and inspired people to do some beautiful work, but I can't resolve faith in a Supreme Being with my view of existence so it's not for me. If it's for you, then awesome, but don't push it on me, and I won't push my beliefs on you.

What would that make me, then photon? Weak Atheist? Honestly curious.

I guess I'd brand my philosophy as existentialist. People are neither good or bad upon birth or are they pre-ordained to be either, and it is only our experiences that lead us to what/who we are.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Antithesis

What would that make me, then photon? Weak Atheist? Honestly curious.

*shakes magic 8 ball*

What you describe sounds like Deism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I find the idea that all of existence could be just some sort of random accident to be somewhat disquieting; if there is some type of creator, then that is exactly what I think "God" is ... created and sat back.

I think it's a bit premature to really be able to evaluate the whole "random accident" thing. While everyone talks about the big bang and how the universe started, really the big bang doesn't cover the initial conditions of the universe, or how those initial conditions came to be. Science's best answer to the question of what "caused" (if such a word even applies) the universe is "Unknown at this time".

So really since science doesn't have a good answer for the process or the bigger picture, to be disquieted by characterizing it as a random accident is premature; wait until they call it a random accident first

For example, if we discovered that there was a manifold of many (or infinite) universes then finding ourselves in this universe is no more miraculous than a the water in a puddle marveling at how the hole it finds itself in is so perfectly shaped for it.

[Thor]

I believe that that need for transcendent has evolved from something ancient humans used for some benefit (evolutionary reason) and eventually religion formed to occupy this in the human mind.

When people ask me what would replace religion, like its inconcievable that this could happen I point to the secular nations of the nordic people and other EU nations. They have for the most part left religion behind, even though many of these nations keep many traditions alive like marriage/funerals/baptisms in churches. Its called cultural traditions, I think the further our various countries advance this is the eventuality.

I do think we will enter a period next in the west where people have lost interest in the old organized religions and something will fill those voids similar to what we see with all these people jumping into 'the secret' and incoporating eastern bhuddist ideals.

But ultimately, the next phase I think is less rigid beliefs, less dogma, more evolved religion, and ultimately more secularist societies.

I've been hooked on reading about neuroscience this last 6 months and there is a great deal of work being done to explain the brain on religion, comparing to secularists.

I do think science can answer alot of these questions, its just going to take a lot of time as neuroscience is now at the barrier of the quantum world in the race to understand the human mind and consciousness.

[mikey_the_redneck]

I believe there is much much more to human/earth origin than we now know.

I also believe humans to be spiritual beings, and that what is a mystery to us, is that which we cannot yet see with our technology. I think of "spiritual" as a form of energy that we have as humans that is unique to other species.

But this whole god and jesus story is a bunch of rubbish as far as I am concerned. There is no hard evidence of the existence of these figures. I believe evolution has taken place, and I have my own stance on what religions are all about that I dont want to get into detail about it at this point.

[HOZ]

Why wasn't Global Warming added? It has it's guilt ridden dogma, Bible, heretics, messiah, prophets, and frothing at the mouth theists.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Why wasn't Global Warming added? It has it's guilt ridden dogma, Bible, heretics, messiah, prophets, and frothing at the mouth theists.

It's climate change.

Because it's observable and recordable.

Like leprechaun populations.

[Cheese]

I think "Most People " who believe, do so, because they have been programmed to do so. Its akin to teaching your baby from the first moment of recognition that the Calgary Flames/Stampeders/Roughnecks are the best teams bar none in the world. Even when they begin to question the standard monotheistic choice of their parents/family they hang on to the "there must be something else" theory. Its ingrained. Thats usually the "Spiritual" side of things...agnostically speaking; not wanting to make a choice for fear of the unknown.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Thor

When people ask me what would replace religion, like its inconcievable that this could happen I point to the secular nations of the nordic people and other EU nations. They have for the most part left religion behind, even though many of these nations keep many traditions alive like marriage/funerals/baptisms in churches. Its called cultural traditions, I think the further our various countries advance this is the eventuality.

I know from first experience that in Denmark at least, they don't actually care about things like marriage. They see marriage, now that they aren't spiritual, as a contract that is pretty much there for legal reasons only, and even that is not very strong. They view marriage as a trap that women were forced into in the past, and are now free of it. It's a very sad way of looking at it. I know one couple, that despite repeated attempts over 10 years on behalf of the man, they have not married due to tax reasons. I know another couple where both sides apparently got married, then divorced, then got married to each other, because it was convenient. I know there are people here in NA like that, but in Denmark at least, there is an extremely casual view of those things, to the point where they have started to lose their meaning.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I think "Most People " who believe, do so, because they have been programmed to do so. Its akin to teaching your baby from the first moment of recognition that the Calgary Flames/Stampeders/Roughnecks are the best teams bar none in the world. Even when they begin to question the standard monotheistic choice of their parents/family they hang on to the "there must be something else" theory. Its ingrained. Thats usually the "Spiritual" side of things...agnostically speaking; not wanting to make a choice for fear of the unknown.

"Most People" also believe in Gravity. They don't do the experiments themselves to prove it exists - it just seems to make sense. In addition, "most people" aren't very bright. That doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist, now, does it?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Knalus

"Most People" also believe in Gravity. They don't do the experiments themselves to prove it exists - it just seems to make sense. In addition, "most people" aren't very bright. That doesn't mean that gravity doesn't exist, now, does it?

Actually gravity is proven. We are taught everything we need to know about Gravity in elementary and middle school. It is a scientific fact, therefore it does make sense...unlike any "religious choice" that is foisted upon us by our parents/family/religious leader.
The western world is becoming very smart...parts of the eastern world have not caught up yet, but will eventually.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by evilcougar

I believe everything happens for a reason, and i believe you are what you make of yourself. I also believe that only YOU can change your life.

Okay, I'm going to jump all over you for this statement, evilcougar.

I don't think you've thought about this very long or hard, or if you have, you haven't come to reasonable conclusions. Your two statements are mutually exclusive and cannot both be true at the same time.

If 'everything happens for a reason' then it absolutely cannot follow that 'you are what you make of yourself' because you have no control over the events that you experience or even create for yourself. Since all (or almost all) of your actions are going to impact others - and yourself - and 'everything happens for a reason' then you don't have any control whatsoever over yourself, because all of your actions are part of this 'higher-purpose', this reason driven existence.

I think what's going on here is that, like a lot of people - particularly those raised by the faithful - you have a difficult time accepting the idea that there might not be a reason for events. If bad things happen, or even good things, it can be difficult not to ascribe special importance to them. If someone survives a damaging experience (and we all have) they are likely to try to find a way to explain why that happened to them, in order to be able to deal with whatever it was that occurred.

Like many people, you want to believe that we (and by extension yourself) are "special", that there is a grand scheme of things and that you are an essential cog in it, however minute. The fact of the matter is, however, that if there IS a grand scheme of things and that you are a cog in it, it strips your life of meaning instead of imbuing it.

If everything does, in fact, happen for a reason - then there is no reason for you to make any choice over any other choice - because whatever you choose was intended to happen. There's no reason to get up in the morning, or even to behave in a moral sense (other than the direct and personal reasons that you will get bed-sores, or will go to jail), if everything happens for a reason, there is no "higher" reason for you NOT to kill your whole family the next time you see them, because if you do, there is obviously a higher reason for you to do so (since everything happens for a reason, and you killing them would then become "something that happened" it must have happened for a reason).

To sum up, the phrase "everything happens for a reason" is a philosophically vapid statement and an intellectually dishonest way to think, unless you honestly believe you're nothing more than a helplessly operating cog in a vast machine OR you believe in an omniscient creator-god who directly involved themselves with their creation, and somehow managed to imbue it with free-will.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Actually gravity is proven.

What is philosophically interesting is that gravity is proven, but not understood. We know that mass attracts mass, and does so in a quantifiable way, but we don't know the why or even the fundamentals of how.

Yes, mass causes curvature in space-time, but we don't know how it does so. It is, to me anyway, profoundly interesting that an objects merely being affects both the universe itself and all other objects. Why should this be so? What is it about mass that causes the curvature, or what is it about space-time that causes it to react to mass in this fashion?

Fascinating stuff.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by driveway

What is philosophically interesting is that gravity is proven, but not understood. We know that mass attracts mass, and does so in a quantifiable way, but we don't know the why or even the fundamentals of how.

Yes, mass causes curvature in space-time, but we don't know how it does so. It is, to me anyway, profoundly interesting that an objects merely being affects both the universe itself and all other objects. Why should this be so? What is it about mass that causes the curvature, or what is it about space-time that causes it to react to mass in this fashion?

Fascinating stuff.

All fantastic questions that Im not about to attempt an answer. I am ignorant of what you ask. I do know that Gravity works....we do not float off this planet into outerspace. Gravity in all its complexity exists and is quantifiable.
Im sure some of our scientific folk will be glad to help you answer some of these questions...if at all possible.
Religion...any religion cannot be quantified. You must "believe or trust" that it exists because a cleric "says so".

[peter12]

I was raised in a Christian home. My extended family was quite fundamentalist, with my own parents gradually moving away from that particular strain of Christianity. I remained a fairly dedicated evangelical Christian into my late teens. However, university life, particularly exposure to Western philosophy, drove me to strongly question my previously held beliefs. I discovered Darwinism (for the first time ever!) and ended up writing my honours thesis on evolutionary biology and political reciprocity. For awhile, I was an acclaimed atheist, Dawkins, Pinker, Harris et al. were my heroes.

However, I kept learning and kept reading about humanity and religion and politics. I have grown to now distance myself from a purely atheist position. Philosophers like Plato and Aristotle draw on a deeper understanding of humanity than the scientists of modernity. I'm not exactly sure where I stand on the religion question currently, my education and personal reading has driven me so far away from a confessional adherent perspective that there is no going back, but I am also fascinated by the ethical and social dimensions of humanity's relationship with the gods.

It really does not matter whether or not there is a big man in the sky. What matters is humanity and the questions that religion tries to answer for everyone. One thing I've learned is that an atheist is, in essence, no different from a theist in the basic framework of their beliefs.

[Knalus]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Actually gravity is proven. We are taught everything we need to know about Gravity in elementary and middle school. It is a scientific fact, therefore it does make sense...unlike any "religious choice" that is foisted upon us by our parents/family/religious leader.
The western world is becoming very smart...parts of the eastern world have not caught up yet, but will eventually.

My issue was with your point about "most people". Most people believe what is easy, sure - but that doesn't mean what they believe is incorrect (or correct). You made it sound like "most people" were morons - because they believe what is easiest. Then you say they're smart, because they agree with you. It's easy to believe something everyone says is proven, right? Even if it's gravity?


It appears your problem isn't with people believing what they are taught, but rather with what they have been taught. That doesn't change anything about the underlying truth to any of these arguments. Your approach is argumentative, without being substantive. It leads to even harsher words being spoken later. So what if people believe or don't believe in ghosts? Does that change the existence of the ghost?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Religion...any religion cannot be quantified. You must "believe or trust" that it exists because a cleric "says so".

Why can't I believe or trust because I 'feel' that it's right? Why does it have to be because someone else told me to?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Why can't I believe or trust because I 'feel' that it's right? Why does it have to be because someone else told me to?

simple...because if someone hadnt told you...you wouldnt know. Once someone has "introduced" you to anything...sports, religion, sex, you decide from that point where to take it. It can be completely ingrained, a fanatic, or on the fringes.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Cheese

simple...because if someone hadnt told you...you wouldnt know. Once someone has "introduced" you to anything...sports, religion, sex, you decide from that point where to take it. It can be completely ingrained, a fanatic, or on the fringes.

I don't understand this point at all. This is the case with everything and everyone.

[Hemi-Cuda]

when you boil it right down, every religion has about as much credibility as Scientology, everyone's favorite whipping post