MacKenzie Weegar rocks

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Coming out of the COVID seasons? No. I distinctly remember considerable doubt among most fans about Gaudreau's ability to be a premiere play-driving winger moving forward. In retrospect, this would have been a good deal, but things looked VASTLY different on the other side of this, heading into the 2021–22 season.

Going by his pproduction it was a reasonable ask. He kept adding to the team which tells me he thought the core could have got it done and Gaudreau was a major piece of the core. If he didn't view Gaudreau as a core piece why keep him.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bonded

He didn't though. 2018/19 he was 1.2, 2019/20 he was .82, 20/21 he was .87
Rough hand is 100k per point for forwards. So 8-9 was a reasonable ask. There was questions around his ability to perform in the playoffs etc but that becomes a different discussion around trading him.

Yes, I remembered the PPG incorrectly. But tell me how many $8-9Mx8 contracts were being handed out to .8-.85 ppg wingers back then? Especially guys who hadn't done much in the POs. The concern was, at the time, that teams had figured Johnny out, that he was just a guy you could count on to button hook and shy away from the corners.

Laine got 7.5x1 that off season.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

If you want to bash BT, it would not be for how he handled young players and prospects.

It should be for
1 Signing players in decline to contracts that were too rich and too long

That’s just the nature of the UFA market. Almost every deal is too much money and takes players well into their 30s. Go back to those notorious UFA signings, look at who else was signed in that UFA market, and ask yourself who Treliving should have signed instead.

2 trading away draft picks for mid tier players.

That’s a fair cop.

Both are symptoms of a team with a weak prospect pool impatiently trying to improve its depth positions around the core.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's a huge stretch considering the man's reputations. Yes.

A filing date doesn't mean there wasn't discussions between the agent and Treliving, and Treliving and other teams before he filed.

Tkachuk has already explained what happened and we know he was traded 5 days after phoning Brad to tell him he wouldn't sign. July 13 Johmny leaves. Tkachuk says that had nothing to do with it but who knows, hard tobimagine it didnt. July 17th he tells Brad he's leaving. July 18th they file for arbitration. July 22 he's traded. Tkachuk said himself he gave Brad a handful of teams he would sign long term with and wanted to work with them to make sure they got maximum return. This is all from Tkachuk himself so I'm not creating the storyline, that's what happened.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Again, no hint from any sources that Jarvis was part of any proposal. It was likely Necas + 1st + B prospect or depth roster player.

People in the Flames camp (not just Treliving) have commented that Florida had the best offer by far. And given the limited options the Flames had (effectively only three teams), that’s not hard to believe.

He doesn't need to be part of the rumored proposal though. The point is Treliving made the trade after only 4 days. Which means he likely spent almost all that time working out the deal and not negotiating with any of the other teams Tkachuk said he would sign long term with. The nature of negotiations you always offer the least to start.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I don't mind an opinion that the Flames lost the trade, or that you don't like the trade.

I'm even open to the idea that some might like other teams offers because of futures and how the franchise sets up.

What I find gobsmacking is the notion that Calgary (Treliving) chose a weaker deal ... because. And a guy with a history of being in on everything didn't talk to other teams or push the envelope to get the best deal (from his vantage point) that he could.

Where did I say he took the weaker deal? I've actually said he probably took the best value deal, at least for trying to immediately get good again. It's known fact Tkachuk was traded 4 days after talking to Brad so yes he didn't push other teams to offer us their best deal.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Tkachuk has already explained what happened and we know he was traded 5 days after phoning Brad to tell him he wouldn't sign. July 13 Johmny leaves. Tkachuk says that had nothing to do with it but who knows, hard tobimagine it didnt. July 17th he tells Brad he's leaving. July 18th they file for arbitration. July 22 he's traded. Tkachuk said himself he gave Brad a handful of teams he would sign long term with and wanted to work with them to make sure they got maximum return. This is all from Tkachuk himself so I'm not creating the storyline, that's what happened.

Perhaps ...

Doesn't change my main point. Treliving has a reputation for being in on everything and talking to everyone.

It's a stretch to assume he wouldn't circle back (for reasons) and wouldn't take a better package if it was available (for reasons).

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Hackey

He doesn't need to be part of the rumored proposal though. The point is Treliving made the trade after only 4 days. Which means he likely spent almost all that time working out the deal and not negotiating with any of the other teams Tkachuk said he would sign long term with. The nature of negotiations you always offer the least to start.

That’s not really how negotiations work in the real world. When you want something of value and there are others who want it to, lowballing is going to get you laughed out of the room. It also doesn’t take 4 days to put together a deal.

Originally Posted by Hackey

Where did I say he took the weaker deal? I've actually said he probably took the best value deal, at least for trying to immediately get good again. It's known fact Tkachuk was traded 4 days after talking to Brad so yes he didn't push other teams to offer us their best deal.

He absolutely pushed other teams to offer their best deal. It doesn’t take 4 days to do that either.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Where did I say he took the weaker deal? I've actually said he probably took the best value deal, at least for trying to immediately get good again. It's known fact Tkachuk was traded 4 days after talking to Brad so yes he didn't push other teams to offer us their best deal.

You certainly suggested he wasn't diligent in pursuing a better deal ...

Originally Posted by Hackey

Maybe. But I do wonder how much they actually pursued other deals or negotiations. From a Blues perspective, Tkachuk is a clear upgrade on Kyrou so that more than makes sense for them. Carolina is knocked for not having a true superstar. Tkachuk could have helped them big time in that area. I don't think a deal around Necas and Jarvis is unrealistic considering both were career high 40 pts players and Tkachuk just put up over 100pts. Teams might have low balled and Florida made a strong offer and Brad then zeroed in on that deal. I do wonder if he even tried to use the Florida deal as leverage to renegotiate with other teams. I think the organization felt a bit embarrassed and resentful with Gaudreau and Tkachuk bolting, and they were dead set on not letting that take down the team, and the Florida deal probably did address that best in the present.

[Jiggy]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You certainly suggested he wasn't diligent in pursuing a better deal ...

Treliving himself said he called all the teams on Matthews list, and most of them said we love the player but we're capped out.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

Treliving himself said he called all the teams on Matthews list, and most of them said we love the player but we're capped out.

The list was Florida, St Louis, Carolina, Tampa and NYR
Tampa and NYR were indeed capped out so it was really a list of 3

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Hackey

He doesn't need to be part of the rumored proposal though. The point is Treliving made the trade after only 4 days. Which means he likely spent almost all that time working out the deal and not negotiating with any of the other teams Tkachuk said he would sign long term with. The nature of negotiations you always offer the least to start.

Some of you guys will find a way to whine and snivel about anything and everything. You keep dreaming up of alternate scenarios, with the benefit of hindsight, that things should have been done better with the implied, or expressed, statement that you would have made the ‘right’ or a ‘better’ decision.

You have no idea, none, what conversations were had either leading up to or in advance of the trade. Some of the things we heard surrounding Tkachuck in 2021/22 were he was rumoured to have been part of an offer for Eichel. St. Louis was rumoured to have offered a package including Scandela, Tarasenko and a pick and Carolina’s offer was rumoured to include Necas.

You’re grasping at straws thinking the Flames could have done better.

[GioforPM]

Treliving made enough mistakes - there’s no need to make up trades that weren’t available to add to the list.

At some point in any negotiations you have to make the deal. Or else you wait too long and the deals actually get worse.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Some of you guys will find a way to whine and snivel about anything and everything. You keep dreaming up of alternate scenarios, with the benefit of hindsight, that things should have been done better with the implied, or expressed, statement that you would have made the ‘right’ or a ‘better’ decision.

You have no idea, none, what conversations were had either leading up to or in advance of the trade. Some of the things we heard surrounding Tkachuck in 2021/22 were he was rumoured to have been part of an offer for Eichel. St. Louis was rumoured to have offered a package including Scandela, Tarasenko and a pick and Carolina’s offer was rumoured to include Necas.

You’re grasping at straws thinking the Flames could have done better.

Which reminds me of an old saying..

The smartest guy in the room is often the guy thats knows what he doesnt know.

[Paulie Walnuts]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Some of you guys will find a way to whine and snivel about anything and everything. You keep dreaming up of alternate scenarios, with the benefit of hindsight, that things should have been done better with the implied, or expressed, statement that you would have made the ‘right’ or a ‘better’ decision.

You have no idea, none, what conversations were had either leading up to or in advance of the trade. Some of the things we heard surrounding Tkachuck in 2021/22 were he was rumoured to have been part of an offer for Eichel. St. Louis was rumoured to have offered a package including Scandela, Tarasenko and a pick and Carolina’s offer was rumoured to include Necas.

You’re grasping at straws thinking the Flames could have done better.

Treliving said they got the list and immediately eliminated team's most likely Tampa and Vegas due to the cap.


They did negotiate with other teams and got offers and it's understandable that they went with the Florida deal it's significantly better.

Not sure why people are still bringing this up and having a tough time with it.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts

Treliving said they got the list and immediately eliminated team's most likely Tampa and Vegas due to the cap.


They did negotiate with other teams and got offers and it's understandable that they went with the Florida deal it's significantly better.

Not sure why people are still bringing this up and having a tough time with it.

Yes. This is accurate based on what has been made public.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You certainly suggested he wasn't diligent in pursuing a better deal ...

Yes I don't think he was diligent in pursuing a better deal from Carolina or St Louis in comparison to what they initially offered, not in comparison to what Florida offered. We know the trade happened in 4 days. We know he had to have initial talks with Tkachuk, initial talks with all teams on his list, actually work out the Florida deal, allow Tkachuk to work out the contract. I'd say it's safe to say negotiations with St Louis and Carolina were a small percentage of those 4 days. So ya I don't think he saw their best offers. AGAIN, not saying he could have got a better deal than Florida's, I'm saying he likely could have got a better deal than their initial offers. I think both St Louis and Carolina could have gave packages with way more youth which I think would have been better for the team in the long run, even if it wasn't as good in the short term. The Flames likely don't go out and sign Kadri in that scenario too.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I'd say it's safe to say negotiations with St Louis and Carolina were a small percentage of those 4 days.

Why is it safe to say that? Do you have access to Treliving's phone logs or something?

I think it's safe to say you pulled that assumption out of your posterior fundamental orifice. We don't know at what point in the process Florida made the offer that Treliving accepted, or how far negotiations with other teams had gone by then.

AGAIN, not saying he could have got a better deal than Florida's, I'm saying he likely could have got a better deal than their initial offers.

So you think Treliving took the best deal he could get, but he still did it wrong because reasons.

If you're selling your old car and somebody offers you $5,000, do you go back and dicker with the guy who offered $3,000 in the hopes that he might go up to $4,000?

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Why is it safe to say that? Do you have access to Treliving's phone logs or something?

I think it's safe to say you pulled that assumption out of your posterior fundamental orifice. We don't know at what point in the process Florida made the offer that Treliving accepted, or how far negotiations with other teams had gone by then.



So you think Treliving took the best deal he could get, but he still did it wrong because reasons.

If you're selling your old car and somebody offers you $5,000, do you go back and dicker with the guy who offered $3,000 in the hopes that he might go up to $4,000?

Deductive reasoning. He has 4 days to get a lot of things done. Therefore there is limited time to spend on each of those things. Maybe a difficult concept for you.

And great analogy. It really captures the nuances of hockey players. You know things like age, contracts, progression, regression.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Deductive reasoning. He has 4 days to get a lot of things done. Therefore there is limited time to spend on each of those things. Maybe a difficult concept for you.

You are the one who talked about percentages. He had a limited time to spend on the whole matter, but you have no information about how he allocated that time among the different tasks involved. You pulled that part out of your arse.

Based on what you have offered on this forum under the rubric of reasoning, I see no evidence that you ever deal in concepts that I would find difficult. Mind you, I don't know what you do for a living: if it involves higher mathematics, then I cheerfully admit I haven't got the background to deal with some of the concepts that arise from that. But percentages are not higher mathematics.

And great analogy. It really captures the nuances of hockey players. You know things like age, contracts, progression, regression.

You yourself admitted that the St. Louis and Carolina offers were greatly inferior to the Florida one, and you yourself said he wasn't going to match the Florida offer by continuing to negotiate with those teams. Nuance doesn't enter into it when the offers aren't even close.

Do you even read your own posts before sneering at other people's responses?