Tank for Bedard

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If the Florida Marlins can go from winning the World Series to finishing 54-108 the next season, surly a team that got to the second round can do it if they want to. Taking like that was brutal for the Marlins though, they had to wait an additional 4 seasons before they won the World Series again.

If it was that easy then why don't more teams do it?
Finding a single example from a completely different spot to argue for that is pretty thin.

Tanking is baseball is easy because you simply strip down your pitching staff. And without pitching you can't win.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If the Florida Marlins can go from winning the World Series to finishing 54-108 the next season, surly a team that got to the second round can do it if they want to. Taking like that was brutal for the Marlins though, they had to wait an additional 4 seasons before they won the World Series again.

Lmao I think most of us might be OK with winning the Stanley Cup every four years.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Poe969

They have a better chance at first overall than they do at winning the cup...or a playoff round...or even making the playoffs. Being a team in the final 4 for the cup gets you nothing, getting a top 4 pick changes your franchise.

It does? Sam Bennett slipped your mind?
I know if the Flames are not at least competitive, winning more games than losing, entertaining, I am not watching...simple as that. Now, I have been a Flames fan since 1980, diehard since 1982 but I have different priorities now and I will not waste my time on the hope of drafting high, or winning a draft lottery, it is not a guarantee. Now if a trade can bring in a lottery pick, count me in.

[Robbob]

As much as people want to tank, there are a bunch of teams that have a head start and have been planning this for a couple years it seems. It will be extremely hard to tank to be a bottom five team. So you are probably looking at around 6% chance, at best, of landing Bedard with the proper tank commanders.

Beyond that, I think the road to a championship is finding those gems in the late rounds. TB wouldn't have won squat with Hedman and Stamkos if it weren't for Point, Kucherov, Cerelli, Pallat, Gourde, Killorn etc.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If it was that easy then why don't more teams do it?
Finding a single example from a completely different spot to argue for that is pretty thin.

Tanking is baseball is easy because you simply strip down your pitching staff. And without pitching you can't win.

It was more a comment on how some posters think it would be absurd for a team that made the second round to tank the year after. I personally would not tank per se, but I sure would be focused on accumulating assets under the age of 24.

Flames are going to move Tkachuk, that is a given. If I was the Flames in that trade I would try to get assets under the age of 24. I would probably not do anything else this offseason, maybe sign a couple UFA's to one year deals.

If Sutter can manufacture anything you probably don't do much at the deadline (maybe trade one of your expiring contracts for some picks like the Glencross deal). But if Sutter cannot manufacture anything I would be trying to extract maximum value for pieces like Markstrom, Tanev, Backlund, Coleman. I would hesitate on Lindholm unless the offer was just ridiculous, but the Flames should be at least thinking about going down that road. Any value in those trades would have to be under the age of 24 too.

[Jiri Hrdina]

^I agree with all of that.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If the Florida Marlins can go from winning the World Series to finishing 54-108 the next season, surly a team that got to the second round can do it if they want to. Taking like that was brutal for the Marlins though, they had to wait an additional 4 seasons before they won the World Series again.

lol.

But really though, Flames do have assets on hand that they should be able to yeild good return from. Flames can quickly stack early round draft picks and some prospects if they trade the likes of Lindholm and Markstrom smartly. Those are players that would be in a high demand, and Flames most likely wouldn't be in a contending position to make use of the prime years of their contract. So better to use their value to bring in pieces that can be contributors to the future.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

^I agree with all of that.

I would also try to get Vladar into at least 20 games before the deadline. I think the Flames need to see if there is something there and it would help out Markstrom's numbers if they trade him. Getting Vladar into that many games (35% of the games played) would likely be difficult under Sutter though.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think there is pretty universal acceptance that a re-build would be a good idea.
The question is more if ownership will sign off on that.

Yep. It sounds cool to grab a bunch of prospects and draft picks and assume you'll have a contender in 5 years. But there are 2 issues.

1) It's not that easy.
2) Ownership has to give that directive.

I don't see a tank/rebuild happening at all. I'm sure in a MT trade there could be some picks or prospects coming the Flames way, but it won't be all futures, they will grab a player or two that can help them now.

[Flame On]

I like to imagine the executive going into Sutter's office and telling him that they'd like to go for a tank strategy and would he please not give a hundred percent or require his team to. They'd be lucky to escape with their lives!

The team can hopefully make moves to give them a lot of assets and youth on their own without some artificial dive, that frankly may not work. Plus there's no chance of bringing Sutter back under that scenario. And how is this fanbase going to react to another young, cheap coach that the team invariably hires after that! Not well.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Yep. It sounds cool to grab a bunch of prospects and draft picks and assume you'll have a contender in 5 years. But there are 2 issues.

1) It's not that easy.
2) Ownership has to give that directive.

I don't see a tank/rebuild happening at all. I'm sure in a MT trade there could be some picks or prospects coming the Flames way, but it won't be all futures, they will grab a player or two that can help them now.

The Flames have done it starting the Treliving’s era. Tanking can be naturally also. This team is more in lottery than contending territories

[Redlan]

If you really want to tank, play hardball with Tkachuk, make him sit into the season. It may expand the teams Tkachuk would sign with because it will start to impact his potential earnings on the next contract. Wait until a team that doesn't meet expectations and might miss the playoffs starts to get desperate to maximize return.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Redlan

If you really want to tank, play hardball with Tkachuk, make him sit into the season. It may expand the teams Tkachuk would sign with because it will start to impact his potential earnings on the next contract. Wait until a team that doesn't meet expectations and might miss the playoffs starts to get desperate to maximize return.

The Flames are obligated to sign him or let him be a UFA this year. If he is a UFA somebody will sign him.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The Flames are obligated to sign him or let him be a UFA this year. If he is a UFA somebody will sign him.

Sign him to the Arbitrators decision and the Flames, or whoever hold his rights, still have the option to sign an 8 year deal in January 2023. But if this is the case, he sits until a trade is made.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Redlan

Sign him to the Arbitrators decision and the Flames, or whoever hold his rights, still have the option to sign an 8 year deal in January 2023.

so is your plan to sign him and make him sit the season while he collects a pay cheque? I am confused by your original post.

[Icon]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

so is your plan to sign him and make him sit the season while he collects a pay cheque? I am confused by your original post.

yeah that's pretty much what he's saying.

I mean sure, if you cant sort out a trade in the summer here then I'd agree signing him to a 1yr deal and keeping him healthy while you sort out a trade is better than not signing him at all and making him a UFA, or having him play half-assed and/or getting injured.

But that shouldn't be plan A. Plan A should be trade him before Aug 11.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I think there is a difference between what hard core fans on here will tolerate v. the broader base.
Re-builds are hard and difficult to predict. How will fans feel if it takes 5+ years to be back in the playoffs.
There is an impact to fan interest and attendance that is a factor. Just because all of us on here are OK with it doesn't mean the broader fan base (including season ticket holders) is. The might be at first, but in years 6 and 7 it gets hard.

I think if the do a re-build it will be a long one because the organization lacks both assets and high end talent. So I don't think it's a quick one unless they lucked into a Bedard. It would take 5-8 years.

Yes and no.

How many casual fans are going to be happy watching the Flames win/lose 2-1 and 3-2 games to a 12th to 7th place conference standings finish. The Flames 2 most exciting players are gone.

Top end prospects always bring some level of excitement. The Flames have literally no one on the roster capable of any kind of high excitement offensive play. It's just the grinders left now.

[Since1984]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If it was that easy then why don't more teams do it?
Finding a single example from a completely different spot to argue for that is pretty thin.

Tanking is baseball is easy because you simply strip down your pitching staff. And without pitching you can't win.

But the Montreal Canadiens just did it....

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Since1984

But the Montreal Canadiens just did it....

Yeah but they lost their best dman and goalie that was playing out of his mind.

Flames would need to jettison Markstrom, Lindholm, and and Andersson to do the same.

[Redlan]

Originally Posted by Icon

yeah that's pretty much what he's saying.

I mean sure, if you cant sort out a trade in the summer here then I'd agree signing him to a 1yr deal and keeping him healthy while you sort out a trade is better than not signing him at all and making him a UFA, or having him play half-assed and/or getting injured.

But that shouldn't be plan A. Plan A should be trade him before Aug 11.

I agree but the dates should not matter as much as the return of the trade. Besides this is a Tank thread so in this context having a player like Tkachuk sit and not receiving assets for much of the season would further a tank. Not that I support a tank.