What would you give up for Eichel?

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

I can’t properly embed on my phone, but Here are Eichel’s top 10 plays from 2019-20:

https://youtu.be/itt_BnQXqYI

We don’t have a player like this. Full stop. If we did, we would know.

Anyone we’ll face to win it all is going to have at least one Eichel, if not more than one.

We can’t have none. The kid has 10 years of prime performance left, or more.

Again, no cost too high.

Would you like to go back in time and trade the Monahan, Poirier, and Klimchuk picks, along with Sven and Backlund to get Nathan MacKinnon?

I would. And I’d still have a job.

Eichel has 10 years of prime performance left! We have reached new heights of the legend of Eichel!

We offered 3 firsts to move up to 1 and draft MacKinnon and were told no. Why do you think they would have accepted the deal with Backlund and Sven

And in hindsight yes - But for the first 3 years you would have already been fired until MacKinnon took off - and poor drafting as always from the Flames doesnt help.

And Sven turned into Rasmus.

So Monny, Backlund, Rasmus and 2 dud firsts. Yes I would still take MacKinnon today. If they werent completely useless picks I dont though, and if they arent useless picks we are probably are not in this predicament to start with

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I have a serious issue with our bottom 9 forwards.

Probably worst in the NHL - Or close.

Why do you think Calgary is a lot better top to bottom then Buffalo. The success we've shown over the past 30 years?

I think the Flames bottom 6 forwards look worse because the top 6 forwards are sucking. The whole forward core needs a change.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Bonded

Yeah, I think Tkachuk carries a lot of value. Tkachuk is worth the equivalent of 2 1sts, Monahan is worth a 1st, and then we toss in an additional 1st.

Value seems about right, but will this put us closer to a cup vs trading those 2 for 3 firsts, keeping our first, and having 10 million in cap. (Then you can trade Gio and Back's too!)

Then use all these assets to acquire players teams would leave unprotected and otherwise loose to Seattle.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

I have a serious issue with our bottom 9 forwards.

Probably worst in the NHL - Or close.

Why do you think Calgary is a lot better top to bottom then Buffalo. The success we've shown over the past 30 years?

Well, we’ve made the playoffs four times in the last seven years, compared to 0 for 9.

Going back just to the turn of the century, 5 playoff appearances for Buffalo, 9 for us.

Finished 1st in the conference a couple years ago - fluke though it may have been, they still did it. It counts.

So there’s that.

Like, do you seriously not think there’s a difference between the try-hard failure that epitomizes Calgary Flames hockey and whatever clown show the Pegulas have going on in Buffalo?

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think the Flames bottom 6 forwards look worse because the top 6 forwards are sucking. The whole forward core needs a change.

Right, but it’s easy to fix the bottom six.

It’s impossible to fix #1C, unless you draft one or you pay for one.

Pay for one.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Lots of really bad trade proposals that wouldn't even get a sniff from Sabres management. The usual sky high over-valuations of our own players married with vastly underestimating the other teams management acumen. Yes the Sabres are a bad team, but that doesn't mean they are going to give away a number one centre.

If I am a Sabres executive Eichel is essentially as untouchable as it gets. Unless he flat out asks for a trade there is likely not many packages a team can present that will get my interest. It's no trade secret that having a number one C to build a team around is the path to success, even the Sabres management knows this. So the proposals of "Monahan, Tkachuk and a 1st" for a bonafide number 1 centre, 24 years old, under contract for 5 more years, would receive audible laughter on the other end of the phone.

Monahan is barely even a 2nd line centre, is a free agent in 2 years, and is on a clear downward trajectory. Tkachuk, i'm guessing, is likely the centre piece of this proposed deal, is not a centre, and is an RFA in a year with a big QO, and a mid-first round pick in a completely unknown draft, doesn't move the needle.

The Flames prospect pool is a dearth of high end talent. Valimaki is probably our best young asset and the Sabres likely are not looking for a D-man as a return for a C.

Eichel would have to fetch a top 5 draft pick from a recent draft, another high end prospect, plus a likely lottery pick, and a really good young roster player. If LA is going to put together a package Think Byfield, Kaliyev, Vilardi and a first. That would be a starting point if I am the Sabres.

[Psytic]

We aren't getting him. Don't get your hopes up.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

If I am a Sabres executive Eichel is essentially as untouchable as it gets. Unless he flat out asks for a trade there is likely not many packages a team can present that will get my interest. I

That is the whole premise of the proposals lol. They won't trade him unless he says eff it, I'm done.

If that happens then it really depends on which way the Sabres want to go, full futures which has been a complete tire for them or some players who can actually play in the NHL?

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Value seems about right, but will this put us closer to a cup vs trading those 2 for 3 firsts, keeping our first, and having 10 million in cap. (Then you can trade Gio and Back's too!)

Then use all these assets to acquire players teams would leave unprotected and otherwise loose to Seattle.

Getting low firsts won't move the needle much unless we trade them to a team that absolutely tanks after the trade ie Ottawa and Sharks.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Bonded

That is the whole premise of the proposals lol. They won't trade him unless he says eff it, I'm done.

If that happens then it really depends on which way the Sabres want to go, full futures which has been a complete tire for them or some players who can actually play in the NHL?

And with that the hypothetical request the package to make that happen has to be incredibly appealing. My point still stands. Tkachuk, Monahan and a 1st is a non-starter.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

And with that the hypothetical request the package to make that happen has to be incredibly appealing. My point still stands. Tkachuk, Monahan and a 1st is a non-starter.

I think it is good if they want established players and not prospects.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by Bonded

I think it is good if they want established players and not prospects.

Even if those established players aren't very good and don't fill a need for the Sabres? It's not like Tkachuk or Monahan bring any sort of championship pedigree, winning mentality, or any real intangible that would change the trajectory of the Sabres. To me that would be a franchise crippling trade.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Even if those established players aren't very good and don't fill a need for the Sabres? It's not like Tkachuk or Monahan bring any sort of championship pedigree, winning mentality, or any real intangible that would change the trajectory of the Sabres. To me that would be a franchise crippling trade.

Sabres may be happy just making the POs, and Tkachuk and Monahan have at least done that.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Lots of really bad trade proposals that wouldn't even get a sniff from Sabres management. The usual sky high over-valuations of our own players married with vastly underestimating the other teams management acumen. Yes the Sabres are a bad team, but that doesn't mean they are going to give away a number one centre.

If I am a Sabres executive Eichel is essentially as untouchable as it gets. Unless he flat out asks for a trade there is likely not many packages a team can present that will get my interest. It's no trade secret that having a number one C to build a team around is the path to success, even the Sabres management knows this. So the proposals of "Monahan, Tkachuk and a 1st" for a bonafide number 1 centre, 24 years old, under contract for 5 more years, would receive audible laughter on the other end of the phone.

You lost me as soon as you said sky high overvaluation of our own players. This fan base is notoriously bad for thinking all our players are worth F all so I didn't even need to read the rest of that ramble.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by flames_fan_down_under

Even if those established players aren't very good and don't fill a need for the Sabres? It's not like Tkachuk or Monahan bring any sort of championship pedigree, winning mentality, or any real intangible that would change the trajectory of the Sabres. To me that would be a franchise crippling trade.

If they want established NHL players who are in the right age range etc then the counter-parties are going to be relatively limited, Flames will get blown away on pure futures packages for sure.

Also, I get Tkachuk is having a down season but calling not very good is selling him way short, Monahan is more arguable but I feel like some people on here would dump him for a third or something.

All fantasy talk though, chances are Eichel stays there and Buffalo tries to re-tool by trading Reinhart, Risto, etc.

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You lost me as soon as you said sky high overvaluation of our own players. This fan base is notoriously bad for thinking all our players are worth F all so I didn't even need to read the rest of that ramble.

Yeah, I feel like with how this season has played out, a lot of people have swung to undervaluing Flames players and overvaluing just about everyone else.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Bargain is again a stretch. For players making more this season:

I would take McDavid, Panarin, Matthews, Marner, Kane all over Eichel (I could see an argument against Marner, but it's at least a discussion)
I would take Eichel over Karlsson, Doughty, Tavares, and Price

So hes paid relatively what he is worth.

But that's part of the point. You are giving up assets to get a guy who's contract pays him what he is worth. There is no extra value there.

You could trade Monny and Hanifin for picks and prospects instead of for Eichel, and then use the 10 million on FA's and have FA's AND Assets.

I just don't get the desire to pay a premium in assets for a player who is paid relatively equal to his value, when we aren't 1 piece from a cup.

We would just be Buffalo 2.0

Picks and FA ain't getting the Flames any players close in the $8M+ range. That list of $10M+ cap hit includes 2 goalies that won't score a goal on any season, which is a laugh! I'm not sure if Marner should be up there, total overpayment for a small guy even though he's got skills like Gaudreau. Hit him hard continuously and he will be what Gaudreau is facing now. The Leafs has a lot of supporting casts that make their star players look great at the moment. If the Sabres has the necessary supporting casts, I don't think this conversation would even pop up. It might be just a pipe dream to get Eichel, but if there's any rumblings - who knows - if there is a chance to get someone like Eichel at all cost, I'd do it. If Sabres want 4 first round picks - sure, why not. Most of the Flames first rounders are busts anyway. Realistically, I don't think the Sabres will let Eichel go unless if Eichel really wants to get out of that organization.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You lost me as soon as you said sky high overvaluation of our own players. This fan base is notoriously bad for thinking all our players are worth F all so I didn't even need to read the rest of that ramble.

Thoughtful response thanks.

Here are a handful of proposals I have seen in this thread that I would describe as massive overvaluations of or own. Or you can see for yourself.

Gaudreau OR Monahan Plus Bennett.

Gaudreau OR Monahan Plus Bennett Pelletier a 1st and a 2nd. Pelletier isn't even a top 30 prospect. Mid round 1st. Why would Sabres want any of these players? Does this make them better in any way?

Tkachuk, Zary OR Pelletier

Monahan, Gaudreau, Zary for Eichel AND Reinhart

Monahan and two 1sts. This year being a mid rounder of course.

Monahan, Anderson and a 1st.

Gaudreau, Bennett and a 1st.

This is just a small sample.

As mentioned previously an NHL exec said that: Byram, Newhook an unprotected 1st and a 2nd wouldn't be enough.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by New Era

Here's the rub about the PPG argument. Some players never play a full season. Jack Eichel is one of those guys. Since his rookie year he's been forced to take games off. These are things you have to factor in with players when projecting what they are going to score and the value they bring to your team. They may score at a PPG clip, but if they only play 3/4 of the games do you receive full benefit? No, you don't.

Actually, yes you do... as long as he plays at least 75ish% of the season and helps get you comfortably into the playoffs, then plays every playoff game for you, you are getting full value. What your top players do in the playoffs matters much more than what they do in the regular season (provided you make the playoffs in the first place). That being said, one guy can't do it all himself. At some point you need some legitimate help to get your team in to the playoffs. The NHL is not a league where one guy can carry a team by himself.

If your argument is that Eichel is injury-prone, that's where you might have a case.

This argument is getting old. Eichel has had Evander Kane, Jeff Skinner, Sam Reinhart, and most recently Taylor Hall on his line.

Again, the only player on this list that has the pedigree of Gaudreau or Lindholm is Hall, but he's looked like crap this year. He looks nothing like the player he was in NJ.

Regarding Eichel, when you're pretty much the only threat on the ice, teams focus on playing you physically and shutting you down. This, combined with his huge ice time per game over the past number of seasons, can explain some of his injuries and games lost.

[powderjunkie]

Pick 1 F:

A - Lindholm
A - Tkachuk
B - Monahan
B - Gaudreau

Pick 1 D:

A - Andersson (valued more than these two b/c organizational depth)
B - Hanifin
B - Valimaki


They can pick one A and one B from above (but has to be 1F and 1D). Then:


1st rd pick (top 8 protected 2021; top 3 protected 2022)
or
Pelletier

AND

Any other prospect they want except Zary or Wolf. If it's the last hurdle to get a deal I include Wolf if they send back a 3rd, or Zary if they send back Mittlestadt.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Pick 1 F:

A - Lindholm
A - Tkachuk
B - Monahan
B - Gaudreau

Pick 1 D:

A - Andersson (valued more than these two b/c organizational depth)
B - Hanifin
B - Valimaki


They can pick one A and one B from above (but has to be 1F and 1D). Then:


1st rd pick (top 8 protected 2021; top 3 protected 2022)
or
Pelletier

AND

Any other prospect they want except Zary or Wolf. If it's the last hurdle to get a deal I include Wolf if they send back a 3rd, or Zary if they send back Mittlestadt.

You’d really walk away from a deal for 24 year old Jack Eichel over Zary or Wolf?