Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

What do you mean? Everyone loves small no hit Ryan who is earning his 3M+ as the 4th line Centre. Backlund is often referred to the the best 2C in the league.

By who?
Ricardo you can't just make stuff up.

Who has called Backlund the beset 2c in the league? Let alone often.
Clarify please.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think you are getting Barkov for that package.

Nor does Nashville need another 2nd/3rd line center with having Johanson, Turris and Duchenne

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think you are getting Barkov for that package.

Then sit on Monahan and play him behind Couturier. I'd be fine with Monahan as a #2.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by New Era

That bridge contract may just be a saving grace. Tkachuk did not have a great year - no Flame did. With the cap remaining stagnant for the next few years it is very likely that Tkachuk cannot demand a massive bump on what he is currently making and has to settle for something in the neighborhood of $8M max, based on comparables. COVID may help the Flames out here.

After sleeping on this, I lean towards a retool. And When I say a retool, I mean some significant changes. It all depends on whether ownership wants to fire Treliving into the sun. If they do, then its a rebuilt, and it is going to be a very long and painful one. I don't think the fans realize how badly this is going to hurt, seeing we have nothing in the pipeline and are working a losing hand. So if it is a rebuild, this is going to take five years before they ice a product relatively close to what we have. Are you prepared for that? I don't think the owners are, so (unfortunately) Treliving hangs around. So, on to the retool. Here is what I would do.

1) Bring in another hockey executive like they did with Burke. They need another voice in the room, someone with experience and some vision. Someone that actually understands how to interview and hire a competent coach. Someone that can hold firm on not trading away any more of our picks.

2) Begin the purge. Every coach in the system is canned. EVERYONE. I don't care of they were part of the 2004 run, if they were coaching any part of this team, GONE! They have a stink on them that is going to years to wash off.

3) Hire a top NHL coach. There are a few available. I personally lean towards Gallant, because he knows how to get the most out of the talent he has to work with. Let this guy pick his coaching staff. No interference and appointments of guys that were part of the past, unless that coach personally asks for them.

4) Understand that this core requires change. I want consistency in performance. I want to finally develop an identity. So with that in mind...

a) Johnny Gaudreau and Oliver Kylington to Philadelphia for Sean Couturier and Shayne Gostisbehere. If that deal was on the table, circle back and get it done. Johnny has to go. He's a guy that just doesn't elevate his game when the going gets tough and you can't have that in a team leader.
b) Mikael Backlund and Mark Jankowski to Nashville for Victor Arvidsson and Nick Bonino. Backlund has been a constant for too long. Time for a change. Nashville will be looking for a shakeup as well so this may be of interest to them.
c) Sean Monahan and Sam Bennett to Florida for Alex Barkov. I hate dealing away Monahan. I still see him as an important player for this team, but you gotta give to get. I don't care what Bennett did for nine games this post season. What he did during the regular season is unforgivable. Sell high, get some value, and move on.
d) Find some, anyone, to take Milan Lucic off your hands, or find some way to come to terms that he is going to retire. All the positives he brought in the play-in games were washed away with two really bad penalties that gave momentum to the Stars in a game the Flames had under control. Not what you expect from a veteran leader, and when those leadership skills are no longer an excuse for your lack of skill, well you have nothing else to offer. I'd be willing to cough up our 2nd to make Lucic go away, and I hate bleeding picks.

Signings

Taylor Hall - $8M x 6 years.
Tyson Barrie - $3.5M x 5 years.
Braden Holtby - $3.5M x 1 year.

Hall ($8M)-Barkov ($5.9)-Arvidsson ($4.25)
Tkachuk ($7M)-Couturier ($4.33)-Lindholm ($4.85)
Dube ($1.5)-Bonino ($4.1)-Mangiapane ($2M)
Rieder ($.800)-Ryan ($3.125)-Gawdin ($.770)
13th forward ($1.00)

Hanafin ($4.95)-Andersson ($4.55)
Giordano ($6.75)-Barrie ($3.5)
Valimaki ($.895)-Gustafsson ($2M)
Mackey/Yelesin ($.775)

Holtby ($3.5)
Rittich ($2.5)

$79.715 - including dead cap space.

This is also trying to plan ahead and make some room for incoming players.
As Bonino and Ryan expire we hopefully see Pelletier step up and take a spot. Same with some of the other minor leaguers (Ruzicka, Matthews, Tuuola, Philip, etc. This is no easy task, but the very condition the league finds itself may provide opportunity for the Flames to strike and make it work.

This is a retool? What's a rebuild?

Either way, there's some pretty wishful thinking in these changes. I doubt key trades imagined here are possibilities.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think you rebuild around Tkachuk, because there is a significant risk that he leaves before the rebuild is complete. I think you rebuild around the young D core.

Defensemen take longer to develop than forwards. But the good news is that we have Andersson (23), Hanifin (23), Valimaki (21), Kylington (23) and Mackay (23) already in the system. that is a great core of young D to build on. So a rebuild shouldn't have to take that long.

Get the right coach, trade Gaudreau, Monahan and Lindholm for as much young potential and picks that you can, then try and get 2 studs in the draft. (you don't have to trade all 3 this summer - make sure you get good value)

Keep guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Mangiapane, and Bennett because you have to ice a team, and they either stay long enough to be part of the solution, or they are the final trade bait a few years from now.

And forchristsake, get a goalie coach who can assess and develop goalies.

The team is in a bit of a pickle with Tkachuk because the length of his deal means you kind of have to win now because as you say he will likely be gone by the time a rebuild is complete.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

By who?
Ricardo you can't just make stuff up.

Who has called Backlund the beset 2c in the league? Let alone often.
Clarify please.

I hate to agree with Ricardo, but that was something supported around here for a while. Remember when Backlund was Mr. Selke? There was some awfully high praise thrown on him a couple seasons back. I don't think that holds any more, but it was said not too long ago in the past.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by New Era

I hate to agree with Ricardo, but that was something supported around here for a while. Remember when Backlund was Mr. Selke? There was some awfully high praise thrown on him a couple seasons back. I don't think that holds any more, but it was said not too long ago in the past.

High praise is different from him being "often called the best #2 centre".
It's either hyperbole or just inaccurate.

[Benched]

I recall people saying "Best #3 centre" when he was buried on Defensive zone draws and still a possession beast. But never #2....

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Big, fast and tough guys with skill are first rounders, often high ones.
This organization has over-prioritized size and toughness in the past with later picks and that got us guys like Kanzig and Smith.
For the me the draft is all about skill and upside. I like the shift the team has made in that regard.

I don't think any of those guys were first rounders, but point taken.

Sorry, they were first rounders but my point still stands, draft big fast players instead of 5'9" guys that "compete"

[Enoch Root]

I am pretty confident that I have never once seen Backlund referred to as the best #2 C in the league.

He has definitely been referred to as the best #3 C in the league (which is not unreasonable to claim). But let's not make #### up

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What teams have torn it down and rebuilt when most of their best players are aged 22-27?

Ottawa has just done it, too early to see the results.

Chicago did it before drafting Kane at #1 & Toews at #3.
Pittsburgh did it before drafting Crosby at #1 & Malkin at #2.

Now just imagine either of those teams had they not re built and got those top 3 picks. They'd be swimming in years of mediocrity like the Flames.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I don't think you are getting Barkov for that package.

Florida is a team who is falling below their own expectations. Maybe they feel their top guy isn't getting them where they want to go and they feel they need a change.

Monahan + Bennett might not get it done, but it's pretty close. Both have very favorable contracts.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

I don't think any of those guys were first rounders, but point taken.

They all were

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This is a retool? What's a rebuild?

Either way, there's some pretty wishful thinking in these changes. I doubt key trades imagined here are possibilities.

Retool is going after existing players on existing contracts, hoping to remain competitive. A rebuild would be trading players away for draft picks and prospects looking for critical mass at a future date.

You have to recognize that other organizations are going to be wanting to make changes as well. Nashville is a team that I believe will be looking to make changes. Florida is a team that is having change forced upon them. You have to recognize the underlying dynamics of teams wanting to make changes and take advantage of that. This off season is going to one of the most interesting ones in a very long time, because there will be so many teams that are going to be facing change. I expect a lot of bodies to change teams this off season for a plethora of reasons, so timing for the Flames may be right to retool. Otherwise, burn it to the ground and rebuild. If this draft is as good as people say (I hate magic beans) this is the draft to move a bunch of players for picks and get the rebuild rolling with sincerity.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Florida is a team who is falling below their own expectations. Maybe they feel their top guy isn't getting them where they want to go and they feel they need a change.

Monahan + Bennett might not get it done, but it's pretty close. Both have very favorable contracts.

I think he's the guy down there. They view him as the most important member of the team. And he's superior to Monahan because he's an elite two-way player.
That deal doesn't make them better now or later.
If you want Barkov - they'll want Tkachuk.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

If you want Barkov - they'll want Tkachuk.

I'd be fine with that. Barkov for Tkachuk straight up? A lot of problems solved.

[Willi Plett]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I struggle to understand where the line is between a re-build and re-tool. But in my mind it is clear that you have to conclude that this re-build failed. And it largely failed because it's success hinged on progression of the core. And too many players failed to take another step and even regressed: Johnny, Monahan, Sam, Rittich, Jankowski, etc. You needed some of that group to find another level, and they didn't.
As others have stated, the series win over Vancouver, probably ended up being more of a curse as it motivated the franchise to try and open their contention window too early.

I would approach the off-season by trading Johnny and Monahan and seeing what type of returns you get. If it's picks then you are in a re-build. If there are roster players involved maybe it's a re-tool.

I thought this last year and still think the same. Call it retool or rebuild. To me a rebuild would be a complete dismantling of virtually everything a la Ottawa. I don’t see that here as there are many pieces to a good puzzle. Still if you’re trading away 2 corner piece players of what should be a top six is that a retool or rebuild.

I don’t think you can trade even our best pieces for a top 1-6 draft pick. Just doesn’t really happen. So to get good value you need a good player back a top prospect and a pick.

I would say it’s a pretty deep retool and yes we have to expect to get worse before we get better.

I would be looking to build around our key younger players but keep the veterans that aren’t attracting great trade value at this time. I would also be bringing in a veteran coach. Still, I would hope that for a year or 2 we would be drafting high and loading up picks wherever I could.

The must keeps:
Tkachuk
Lindholm
Bennett
Rasmus
Valimaki
Dube
Giordano (only 2 years left, but for the right offer yes I would)

The I want more than I’m getting so probably I’m keeping:
Hanifin (young and worth more than I’m going to get)
Kilington (low trade value)
Lucic (not getting enough here, good leader)
Backlund (probably move later at a trade deadline)

The surprise, I’m bringing them back:
Talbot
Reider
Rinaldo
Gustafson (can I get him?)
ForborT
Brodie but does he even want to?

I would resign and sign any free agents I wanted before moving assets. Surprise, you signed here but I couple of players you thought would be here are not. This might include a Taylor Hall but not if a NMC was involved because my goal would be to convert signings to picks and prospects in 1-3 years.

Really, there are not that many high value pieces to move and rebuild from. Johnny, Monahan, and then we are adding the pieces to get the deals we want. Maybe Mangiapane or Kilington are the adds. 1st-4th round picks and top prospects are not.

So it’s a pretty deep retool but not a rebuild I’d say.

[The Professor]

I'd say there is very low chance it's torn down for futures. There will be some major pieces moved. Hopefully for at least some picks and younger assets, but for the most part it'll be lateral - for similar age/ability players. That's my guess anyways. If we can deal Gio, that would be good. I think Gaudreau or Monahan will be traded as well.

Should be a very interesting summer!

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'd be fine with that. Barkov for Tkachuk straight up? A lot of problems solved.

Yeah so would I. I think Barkov is an absolute star and stud.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by New Era

That bridge contract may just be a saving grace. Tkachuk did not have a great year - no Flame did. With the cap remaining stagnant for the next few years it is very likely that Tkachuk cannot demand a massive bump on what he is currently making and has to settle for something in the neighborhood of $8M max, based on comparables. COVID may help the Flames out here.

You are saying that the Flames will not qualify Tkachuk for the 9M that his contract set as the minimum?

He would get close to the league max as a 24 year old UFA based on the mediocre year he had as the clear cut best Flames player over the last year.