Poll Request: Retool or Rebuild?

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You could have kept Tkachuk and rebuilt the roster around him if he had been signed to term.

That bridge contract is some of Tree’s worst work. Right up there with Neal and Brouwer.

Brutal contract. Brutal incompetence to not clear the cap space to get a proper long term deal done.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

You could have kept Tkachuk and rebuilt the roster around him if he had been signed to term.

And this is where we circle back to asking if Treliving is the right guy to carry on and rebuild or even retool. Its a legit conversation to be had.

I get the argument for stability, but stability that cradles mediocrity isn't really stability at all.

[BarDown]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I struggle to understand where the line is between a re-build and re-tool. But in my mind it is clear that you have to conclude that this re-build failed. And it largely failed because it's success hinged on progression of the core. And too many players failed to take another step and even regressed: Johnny, Monahan, Sam, Rittich, Jankowski, etc. You needed some of that group to find another level, and they didn't.
As others have stated, the series win over Vancouver, probably ended up being more of a curse as it motivated the franchise to try and open their contention window too early.

I would approach the off-season by trading Johnny and Monahan and seeing what type of returns you get. If it's picks then you are in a re-build. If there are roster players involved maybe it's a re-tool.

This is the way I see it as well.

The rebuild has failed and significant change needs to happen. There are some nice emerging pieces on the roster, but the biggest issue is the team's top talent failing to become true difference makers.

Monahan and/or Gaudreau could be moved in "hockey trades" (e.g Johansen for Jones, Hall for Larsson). If so, I imagine that the "retooled" flames will expect to compete for the playoffs next year.

Alternatively, they could ship one or both players for prospects and picks, which means we are likely in a full-blown rebuild and the team will be weaker on paper next year, and future success may be more distant.

The merits of either approach really depend on the return imo. Either way, it would be amazing if we could come out on top on a one-sided trade. Like a reverse gilmour trade (a guy can dream... right??). After another tortuous end to a season, I feel that I'm left grasping at straws here.

The coach issue also needs to be addressed. Ward may not be the biggest problem with the team, but I can't see him as Head Coach being part of the solution.

[Toonage]

I brought this up the other day and I'm very curious to find out how ownership approaches this. There may not be playoff revenue next year (or limited revenues). This may be the ideal time to cut costs and rebuild.

The downside is that coaching would remain cheap too.

[Strange Brew]

Is there any evidence that Tkachuk is willing to sign here long term?

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

To me the line is drawn at Monahan. If you trade Monahan, it’s a rebuild because your centre depth is the worst in the league without him. Only way to fix that is through the draft.

I struggle to see this team trading Monahan (and Gaudreau) though. This organization does nothing proactive.

I wouldn't say they do nothing proactive, but I do get the impression that the organization's idea of being good enough is just making it into the playoffs, not actually being a team that does damage in the playoffs. As a result, they don't make many high-risk high-reward moves. Instead, the moves are usually incremental improvements with controlled downsides to keep the team out of the basement, ultimately resulting in decades of mediocrity.

Not wanting to suck, but not having the guts to go big is pretty much the organizational culture top to bottom.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

What teams have torn it down and rebuilt when most of their best players are aged 22-27?

Edmonton.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

To me the line is drawn at Monahan. If you trade Monahan, it’s a rebuild because your centre depth is the worst in the league without him. Only way to fix that is through the draft.

I struggle to see this team trading Monahan (and Gaudreau) though. This organization does nothing proactive.

Exactly. The biggest problem is at C, and it is the hardest to fix. If you trade Monahan, a 31 year old Backlund is the best you've got. That requires a full rebuild.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Is there any evidence that Tkachuk is willing to sign here long term?

Not really. In a year I think we're having the same conversation about him as we're now having about Gaudreau. Especially if the team craters in the standings.

[Enoch Root]

For me, it comes down to the core. If you have a solid core, and you're looking to fix a couple problems, it's a retool. But if the core is the problem, and you're looking to move your best players, it's a rebuild. You can't tear up your core and expect to remain competitive, or bounce back in a year.

[Beatle17]

The only things I want to see as a team plan is no more drafting these little guys. Find 2nd, 3rd and 4th line players like Gurianov, Dickinson and others on Dallas. They are all big, fast and "truculent" with skill. It is very tiring to see guys get pushed around year after year.

Get some defencemen that have size and the ability to stop other teams from cycling the puck. Gio is done, too slow and doesn't move the puck quick enough anymore. Re-sign Brodie and Gustaffson and play the young guys. Any goodbye Gaudreau, if you want to be somewhere else then move along.

I love Tkachuk but he needs to back off just a bit. He doesn't need to answer the bell to everyone who challenges him. He said Perry was his favourite player and you don't see Perry fight, you see Perry stirring #### up, taking a punch and doing damage on the powerplay he created. Play more like that, who cares what announcers say, let the tough guys fight.

[ricardodw]

retool.

Somehow get the C off of Gio. He is not the kind of leader that proactively gets other players to reach their potential. The series win over the Jets was the first time he was in a series ending handshake line as a winner.

No one expected him to stand up to Benn after Benn chased Tkachuk to the sidelines or even be upset about it. Not the Gio that went mad dog on Dustin Brown

The simple fact that no one on the Flames even got worked up about Benn on Tkachuk's spear to the nads is symptomatic.

A captain in the NHL needs a lot more gang leader attributes than Gio has.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Big, fast and tough guys with skill are first rounders, often high ones.
This organization has over-prioritized size and toughness in the past with later picks and that got us guys like Kanzig and Smith.
For the me the draft is all about skill and upside. I like the shift the team has made in that regard.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

That bridge contract is some of Tree’s worst work. Right up there with Neal and Brouwer.

Brutal contract. Brutal incompetence to not clear the cap space to get a proper long term deal done.

That bridge contract may just be a saving grace. Tkachuk did not have a great year - no Flame did. With the cap remaining stagnant for the next few years it is very likely that Tkachuk cannot demand a massive bump on what he is currently making and has to settle for something in the neighborhood of $8M max, based on comparables. COVID may help the Flames out here.

After sleeping on this, I lean towards a retool. And When I say a retool, I mean some significant changes. It all depends on whether ownership wants to fire Treliving into the sun. If they do, then its a rebuilt, and it is going to be a very long and painful one. I don't think the fans realize how badly this is going to hurt, seeing we have nothing in the pipeline and are working a losing hand. So if it is a rebuild, this is going to take five years before they ice a product relatively close to what we have. Are you prepared for that? I don't think the owners are, so (unfortunately) Treliving hangs around. So, on to the retool. Here is what I would do.

1) Bring in another hockey executive like they did with Burke. They need another voice in the room, someone with experience and some vision. Someone that actually understands how to interview and hire a competent coach. Someone that can hold firm on not trading away any more of our picks.

2) Begin the purge. Every coach in the system is canned. EVERYONE. I don't care of they were part of the 2004 run, if they were coaching any part of this team, GONE! They have a stink on them that is going to years to wash off.

3) Hire a top NHL coach. There are a few available. I personally lean towards Gallant, because he knows how to get the most out of the talent he has to work with. Let this guy pick his coaching staff. No interference and appointments of guys that were part of the past, unless that coach personally asks for them.

4) Understand that this core requires change. I want consistency in performance. I want to finally develop an identity. So with that in mind...

a) Johnny Gaudreau and Oliver Kylington to Philadelphia for Sean Couturier and Shayne Gostisbehere. If that deal was on the table, circle back and get it done. Johnny has to go. He's a guy that just doesn't elevate his game when the going gets tough and you can't have that in a team leader.
b) Mikael Backlund and Mark Jankowski to Nashville for Victor Arvidsson and Nick Bonino. Backlund has been a constant for too long. Time for a change. Nashville will be looking for a shakeup as well so this may be of interest to them.
c) Sean Monahan and Sam Bennett to Florida for Alex Barkov. I hate dealing away Monahan. I still see him as an important player for this team, but you gotta give to get. I don't care what Bennett did for nine games this post season. What he did during the regular season is unforgivable. Sell high, get some value, and move on.
d) Find some, anyone, to take Milan Lucic off your hands, or find some way to come to terms that he is going to retire. All the positives he brought in the play-in games were washed away with two really bad penalties that gave momentum to the Stars in a game the Flames had under control. Not what you expect from a veteran leader, and when those leadership skills are no longer an excuse for your lack of skill, well you have nothing else to offer. I'd be willing to cough up our 2nd to make Lucic go away, and I hate bleeding picks.

Signings

Taylor Hall - $8M x 6 years.
Tyson Barrie - $3.5M x 5 years.
Braden Holtby - $3.5M x 1 year.

Hall ($8M)-Barkov ($5.9)-Arvidsson ($4.25)
Tkachuk ($7M)-Couturier ($4.33)-Lindholm ($4.85)
Dube ($1.5)-Bonino ($4.1)-Mangiapane ($2M)
Rieder ($.800)-Ryan ($3.125)-Gawdin ($.770)
13th forward ($1.00)

Hanafin ($4.95)-Andersson ($4.55)
Giordano ($6.75)-Barrie ($3.5)
Valimaki ($.895)-Gustafsson ($2M)
Mackey/Yelesin ($.775)

Holtby ($3.5)
Rittich ($2.5)

$79.715 - including dead cap space.

This is also trying to plan ahead and make some room for incoming players.
As Bonino and Ryan expire we hopefully see Pelletier step up and take a spot. Same with some of the other minor leaguers (Ruzicka, Matthews, Tuuola, Philip, etc. This is no easy task, but the very condition the league finds itself may provide opportunity for the Flames to strike and make it work.

[Mattman]

Retool.

Trade Johnny. Get rid of Gio, and Brodie.

I think you keep Mony because that just screams Ryan O'Reilly and the Sabres ( Zabineajad/Ottawa) to me. It's harder to find a competitive top 6 center than a top 6 winger.

Invest in some high end prospects and goaltending. The D could use work but I don't think that's the biggest problem the Flames have.

And find a new GM

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

The only things I want to see as a team plan is no more drafting these little guys. Find 2nd, 3rd and 4th line players like Gurianov, Dickinson and others on Dallas. They are all big, fast and "truculent" with skill. It is very tiring to see guys get pushed around year after year.

Get some defencemen that have size and the ability to stop other teams from cycling the puck. Gio is done, too slow and doesn't move the puck quick enough anymore. Re-sign Brodie and Gustaffson and play the young guys. Any goodbye Gaudreau, if you want to be somewhere else then move along.

Gurianov, Dickinson and Faksa are all former 1st round picks made by the Stars.

Gurianov 12th, Faksa 13, Dickinson 29 (Their second pick in the 1st round that year, Pick received from Boston for getting Jagr at the deadline)

Dickinson was selected with the pick immediately following the Flames picking Klimchuk.

The decisions that plague the flames were made 5-10 years ago, just like the bad decisions over the last 5 years won't fully play out for another 5-10.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by New Era

Tkachuk cannot demand a massive bump on what he is currently making and has to settle for something in the neighborhood of $8M max,

His qualifying offer is 9m.

If we do not offer him that he is a free agent.

If he just settles for one year at 9m he is a free agent after that one year.

Good luck getting him to sign a long term contract in the range of 8 mil.

I don't think hes even worth 9 million.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by New Era

That bridge contract may just be a saving grace. Tkachuk did not have a great year - no Flame did. With the cap remaining stagnant for the next few years it is very likely that Tkachuk cannot demand a massive bump on what he is currently making and has to settle for something in the neighborhood of $8M max, based on comparables. COVID may help the Flames out here.

After sleeping on this, I lean towards a retool. And When I say a retool, I mean some significant changes. It all depends on whether ownership wants to fire Treliving into the sun. If they do, then its a rebuilt, and it is going to be a very long and painful one. I don't think the fans realize how badly this is going to hurt, seeing we have nothing in the pipeline and are working a losing hand. So if it is a rebuild, this is going to take five years before they ice a product relatively close to what we have. Are you prepared for that? I don't think the owners are, so (unfortunately) Treliving hangs around. So, on to the retool. Here is what I would do.

1) Bring in another hockey executive like they did with Burke. They need another voice in the room, someone with experience and some vision. Someone that actually understands how to interview and hire a competent coach. Someone that can hold firm on not trading away any more of our picks.

2) Begin the purge. Every coach in the system is canned. EVERYONE. I don't care of they were part of the 2004 run, if they were coaching any part of this team, GONE! They have a stink on them that is going to years to wash off.

3) Hire a top NHL coach. There are a few available. I personally lean towards Gallant, because he knows how to get the most out of the talent he has to work with. Let this guy pick his coaching staff. No interference and appointments of guys that were part of the past, unless that coach personally asks for them.

4) Understand that this core requires change. I want consistency in performance. I want to finally develop an identity. So with that in mind...

a) Johnny Gaudreau and Oliver Kylington to Philadelphia for Sean Couturier and Shayne Gostisbehere. If that deal was on the table, circle back and get it done. Johnny has to go. He's a guy that just doesn't elevate his game when the going gets tough and you can't have that in a team leader.
b) Mikael Backlund and Mark Jankowski to Nashville for Victor Arvidsson and Nick Bonino. Backlund has been a constant for too long. Time for a change. Nashville will be looking for a shakeup as well so this may be of interest to them.
c) Sean Monahan and Sam Bennett to Florida for Alex Barkov. I hate dealing away Monahan. I still see him as an important player for this team, but you gotta give to get. I don't care what Bennett did for nine games this post season. What he did during the regular season is unforgivable. Sell high, get some value, and move on.
d) Find some, anyone, to take Milan Lucic off your hands, or find some way to come to terms that he is going to retire. All the positives he brought in the play-in games were washed away with two really bad penalties that gave momentum to the Stars in a game the Flames had under control. Not what you expect from a veteran leader, and when those leadership skills are no longer an excuse for your lack of skill, well you have nothing else to offer. I'd be willing to cough up our 2nd to make Lucic go away, and I hate bleeding picks.

Signings

Taylor Hall - $8M x 6 years.
Tyson Barrie - $3.5M x 5 years.
Braden Holtby - $3.5M x 1 year.

Hall ($8M)-Barkov ($5.9)-Arvidsson ($4.25)
Tkachuk ($7M)-Couturier ($4.33)-Lindholm ($4.85)
Dube ($1.5)-Bonino ($4.1)-Mangiapane ($2M)
Rieder ($.800)-Ryan ($3.125)-Gawdin ($.770)
13th forward ($1.00)

Hanafin ($4.95)-Andersson ($4.55)
Giordano ($6.75)-Barrie ($3.5)
Valimaki ($.895)-Gustafsson ($2M)
Mackey/Yelesin ($.775)

Holtby ($3.5)
Rittich ($2.5)

$79.715 - including dead cap space.

This is also trying to plan ahead and make some room for incoming players.
As Bonino and Ryan expire we hopefully see Pelletier step up and take a spot. Same with some of the other minor leaguers (Ruzicka, Matthews, Tuuola, Philip, etc. This is no easy task, but the very condition the league finds itself may provide opportunity for the Flames to strike and make it work.

I don't think you are getting Barkov for that package.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

To me the line is drawn at Monahan. If you trade Monahan, it’s a rebuild because your centre depth is the worst in the league without him. Only way to fix that is through the draft.

I struggle to see this team trading Monahan (and Gaudreau) though. This organization does nothing proactive.

What do you mean? Everyone loves small no hit Ryan who is earning his 3M+ as the 4th line Centre. Backlund is often referred to the the best 2C in the league.

[Enoch Root]

I don't think you rebuild around Tkachuk, because there is a significant risk that he leaves before the rebuild is complete. I think you rebuild around the young D core.

Defensemen take longer to develop than forwards. But the good news is that we have Andersson (23), Hanifin (23), Valimaki (21), Kylington (23) and Mackey (23) already in the system. that is a great core of young D to build on. So a rebuild shouldn't have to take that long.

Get the right coach, trade Gaudreau, Monahan and Lindholm for as much young potential and picks that you can, then try and get 2 studs in the draft. (you don't have to trade all 3 this summer - make sure you get good value)

Keep guys like Tkachuk, Dube, Mangiapane, and Bennett because you have to ice a team, and they either stay long enough to be part of the solution, or they are the final trade bait a few years from now.

And forchristsake, get a goalie coach who can assess and develop goalies.