Chris Butler Discussion: Sign, or Walk?

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by nik-

sign him cheap, keep him on the bottom pairing. We have no one ready to make the jump yet.

Butler will never be the difference between the flames turning the corner or not. A guy like wotherspoon, however, could be and for much cheaper then butler will come.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by 3rd line Grinder

sign him: worst case senario for him is that he gets pushed out by wotherspoon and he becomes a 7th d we trade at the deadline for a pick

Don't you think Burke tried to trade him at this point all ready? I doubt there is much of a market to give up assets of any kind for him.

[EldrickOnIce]

I'm confused when people talk money regarding Butler or replacement.
At this point money is irrelevant. Term is only thing that matters. Cap floor is a LONG way off without Cammy, etc.
Money does not matter, only length of term

[FAN]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I'm confused when people talk money regarding Butler or replacement.
At this point money is irrelevant. Term is only thing that matters. Cap floor is a LONG way off without Cammy, etc.
Money does not matter, only length of term

Money matters. You can't just sign Butler to a one year $5 million dollar contract just because the team might be under the cap by quite a bit. It still sets a comparable. And if you are looking to move him near the deadline, the lower the cap bit the more attractive Butler would be.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by FAN

Money matters. You can't just sign Butler to a one year $5 million dollar contract just because the team might be under the cap by quite a bit. It still sets a comparable. And if you are looking to move him near the deadline, the lower the cap bit the more attractive Butler would be.

We can always retain salary in a trade.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I'm confused when people talk money regarding Butler or replacement.
At this point money is irrelevant. Term is only thing that matters. Cap floor is a LONG way off without Cammy, etc.
Money does not matter, only length of term

Agreed here. $2M, fine, but don't give him a contract that has more years on it then the number of months he's been playing well. Giving a bottom pairing defenseman more than 2 years would be as smart as giving Tom Kostopolous a 3 year contract a few years ago.... Butlers not useless, but he's not irreplacable either. If he's not willing to sign for 2 years or less, I'm more than sure there is someone out there that can fill the job Butler is doing. And if Butler is really going to improve, he should be more than ok with 1-2 year contract.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

Do not understand this type of point of view................let the kids play? They aren't related discussions, so why do they keep coming up? Butler does not prevent the kids from playing. All a kid has to do is earn their spot versus Butler, and they will play. Re-signed Butler doesn't stop this from happenning or make it less likely that kids will play, especially if Butler is as bad as many on here think.

We don't need to get rid of veterans or older players to "make room" for the youngsters....................I wish people would stop suggesting this is a requirement. If there is a youngster who can't un-seat Butler from his role, then two things are true:

1. Butler isn't as bad as people are saying and should be given a spot on this team cause he's not that old.
2. The youngster isn't ready to make the jump and should stay in the AHL.

The reason the argument about letting the kids play keeps coming up is simple, a hockey player's performance is not solely dependent on skill. When the Flames bring a player up he has to get used to the new systems, find chemistry with a new partner, and he has to do it meanwhile essentially moving to a new city. Yes, hockey players are professionals and need to get used to such conditions from a young age, but a player will be gripping his stick a little harder when he knows any mistake might cost him his job(and there is quite a difference in salary for 2 way contracts).

The other side of the argument is of course that we don't want players to get too comfortable with having a roster spot. However, I think letting players like Byron know they are now an NHL player improves their performance. The same way I think a gradual increase in a players responsibilities helps in his development(Backlund, Colborne this year). I am not sure this can happen if that player plays 5min a night as an injury replacement.

As for Butler like I said before he is average in all aspects, so the Flames will be the same team with or without him. I just prefer a riskier investment in a younger player with a higher potential. Butler is not going to be the difference between playoffs or no playoffs. I think he will be much the same as players like Comeau, Babchuck, Jackman(yes I know 2 of them are forwards) etc. They have a good half a season then we sign them to a 2 year contract and don't know what to do with them when the contract is up.

[The Fonz]

Give him 3 yrs @ 2m per, and keep him as a 5-6 guy.

[Badgers Nose]

He is playing very well lately, I hope the Flames can sign him to a reasonable 3-4 year contract.

The Regher trade looks OK now, he a Byron are really pulling their weight.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

He is playing very well lately, I hope the Flames can sign him to a reasonable 3-4 year contract.

The Regher trade looks OK now, he a Byron are really pulling their weight.

Are those 2 worth 3 2nd round picks?

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

Those are good points if this team was on the cusp of turning the corner. However, being one who subscribes to the theory of 1/3 turnover per year during a rebuild, I think he's a strong candidate for 1/3 out.

The point of rebuilding is to bring youth into the line up. They know what butler is. He's not horrible, but not difficult to replace from within the organization at some point...

I disagree. The point of rebuilding is development and patience to ensure that the team becomes a long-term contender in the future. It has nothing to do with how many rookies or prospects are inserted into the lineup each season, only how much better prospects as a group are becoming on a year-to-year basis. Of course, if they are progressing in the right direction they will inevitably work their way into the lineup with some consistency, but this is NO REASON to simply move an arbitrary number of new players into the lineup every year.

My point is basically this: Butler can and should be re-signed, and this in NO WAY prevents the Flames from continuing to pursue upgrades at the position through free-agency, trades, and prospect development. Again, if Butler is as bad as many posters believe him to be, then he will simply get pushed out by better players in the system, or acquired via trade, or signed in the off-season. But it is extremely premature to simply dump him on the presupposition that some anomalous player from outside the organisation or a prospect with a handful of pro games to his credit will unequivocally make him redundant.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

...The other side of the argument is of course that we don't want players to get too comfortable with having a roster spot. However, I think letting players like Byron know they are now an NHL player improves their performance. The same way I think a gradual increase in a players responsibilities helps in his development(Backlund, Colborne this year). I am not sure this can happen if that player plays 5min a night as an injury replacement...

This is not in line with the point you are making, but your thoughts here raise another point altogether. Why do Byron and Colborne get the benefit of the doubt heading into next season where Butler does not? As near as I can tell ALL THREE players have improved in around the same period of time.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Are those 2 worth 3 2nd round picks?

Silly post.

1. The 2nd was to dump kotalik.
2. No one offered Flames two 2nd rounders for Regehr.

I expect more from a long time CPer.

[Igster]

Seems like a good team guy. Has gotten better as the year has progressed. I say sign him.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by dying4acup

The point of rebuilding is to bring youth into the line up. They know what butler is. He's not horrible, but not difficult to replace from within the organization at some point.

Butler is 27. That's 4 years older than Brodie.

As a Dman, I'd bet his best years are these next 2-5. He is by no means an old "post-apex" player.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is not in line with the point you are making, but your thoughts here raise another point altogether.

I mentioned that part simply to acknowledge that I understand the other side of the argument. I just didn't want to continue arguing in circles. On the one side we don't want players to become too comfortable like the ones up north. On the other side we want our players to take the next step in their development which being with the NHL club the entire season will(should) help.

Originally Posted by Textcritic

] Why do Byron and Colborne get the benefit of the doubt heading into next season where Butler does not? As near as I can tell ALL THREE players have improved in around the same period of time.

The reason I give Byron and Colborne the benefit of the doubt is because from time to time I see great plays out of them. Those plays seem to increase my own expectations out of them. I hope I am wrong, but Butler seems like he is already hitting his maximum potential. Butler's improvements show in the way of him making less mistakes and simply becoming less noticeable around the ice. Maybe I am a hypocrite but for me an improvement that simply involves less screaming on my TV is not that big of an improvement.

[Jiggy]

I would try and sign Nikita Nikitin. If that doesn't pan out, go with Butler for 3 years 8 million.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiggy

I would try and sign Nikita Nikitin. If that doesn't pan out, go with Butler for 3 years 8 million.

If by '3 years 8 million' you mean 2 years $3.5m, then sure

[Mister Yamoto]

Re sign Butler AND Smith.

Gio............Brodie
Smid..........Russell
Wideman....Butler

Smith........O'Brien


That would mean that the top 7 on opening night this season could all be back for opening night next season.

[The Fonz]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Re sign Butler AND Smith.

Gio............Brodie
Smid..........Russell
Wideman....Butler

Smith........O'Brien


That would mean that the top 7 on opening night this season could all be back for opening night next season.

.....Where's Wotherspoon?