[News] Wideman out 6-8 weeks, Monahan week to week

[flambers]

Originally Posted by neo45

You can't say Butler is an effective 5/6 dman either. He is just as bad when he is playing on the bottom pairing. Butler/SOB pairing was just terrible to start the season

Totally disagree, Butler would not be playing 20 to 24 minutes a night if the Coaches did not respect his play. Its a CP thing....

Folks use to complain about Bouwmeester all of the time. He gets traded and is playing very well go figure.

Some players are targets... no clue why.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by flambers

Totally disagree, Butler would not be playing 20 to 24 minutes a night if the Coaches did not respect his play. Its a CP thing....

Folks use to complain about Bouwmeester all of the time. He gets traded and is playing very well go figure.

Some players are targets... no clue why.

If you can't see the difference between Butler and Bouwmeester then there is nothing I can do for you.

It's not a CP thing. Butler looks bad on ANY pairing on the weakest D group in the league

The coaches also thought Comeau was one of the Flames best forwards....

[MolsonInBothHands]

Originally Posted by moon

Crosby, Phaneuf, Monahan.



Not sure who the other 2-3 guys are.

There is definitely some Bouwmeester love in you.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by neo45

If you can't see the difference between Butler and Bouwmeester then there is nothing I can do for you.

It's not a CP thing. Butler looks bad on ANY pairing on the weakest D group in the league

The coaches also thought Comeau was one of the Flames best forwards....

That's clearly not the point....

Basically the point is certain players get targeted for what ever reason. Its most definetely is a CP thing.

Clearly the Coaches are playing the guy ~ 20 to 24 minutes a night.

I sure hope they can read the value of player between than the arm chair GMs.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by flambers

That's clearly not the point....

Basically the point is certain players get targeted for what ever reason. Its most definetely is a CP thing.

Clearly the Coaches are playing the guy ~ 20 to 24 minutes a night.

I sure hope they can read the value of player between than the arm chair GMs.

Bouwmeester was probably a "target" because he made 5 million more than Butler.

If the only good thing people can say about Butler is "well he isn't that bad playing big minutes" then that is pretty telling. In 3 years here he has yet to find any real success on any pairing

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Why we call up Byron I'll never know.

To send a message to Gaudreau that he should sign here, of course!

[FBI]

Butler is 2nd last in the league in +/-.. (2nd only to another terrible defensive player)

+/- doesn't tell the whole story but it sure fits the script for how Butler plays IMO..
I cannot WAIT till he is gone.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

While Byron is hardly the answer, by all accounts he deserved a call-up on merit, so I am happy for that. Also, if I recall correctly, he played well in a breif stint (possibly even less than a game), before getting injured.
Plenty of time to see some of the newer toys in Calgary.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by flambers

Totally disagree, Butler would not be playing 20 to 24 minutes a night if the Coaches did not respect his play. Its a CP thing....

Folks use to complain about Bouwmeester all of the time. He gets traded and is playing very well go figure.

Some players are targets... no clue why.

100% correct. Then in the season he got traded (Hartley's first as a coach here), he was RARELY if ever complained about - I would bet he received a lot of praise from the posters here. Why? Because he was finally doing well.

Stajan got ragged on here all the time too for his first few seasons in Calgary. How often does that happen now? Sure, most would like him to be traded, but it isn't because people feel he is terrible at all any longer.

If Butler ever consistently performs well (and he has had stretches this year where he looked good - even a whole 'pro-Butler' thread!) he will not only be out of the doghouse, but will also be praised.

It isn't a 'CP' thing, or an 'armchair GM' thing. Feaster went out and acquired Smid, and basically said they don't feel they had enough confidence in the bottom pairing (which included Butler). Butler's TOI before Giordano got injured was quite low. He was just the best of the worst, and that is why he is playing bigger minutes. When Giordano and Wideman return, look for Butler to be back at less than 10 minutes, and perhaps even taking a regular rotation as a scratch.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by Bertuzzied

Effing. I hate not making a mark on this site. ALL THESE FLIPPING years and you didn't put in that i hate Brent Sutter??

and fixed the others.

I appreciate your hate for Joey. I even hate his name.

[killer_carlson]

My hatred for Butler is not hidden at all. Needs to move on and should not be re-signed if we cannot trade him. This topic has been beaten to a pulp.

However, a growing concern for me is that none of our d prospects have been able to push him out of the lineup. It is up to Ramage, Breen, Sieloff, cundari to push him out. Wotherspoon and Billings as well.

The opportunity is there and from where I stand the team isn't winning with Butler in this role. I'd like to think they would play the prospects if there was a chance they could be close to Butler, but they arent close at this point.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

My hatred for Butler is not hidden at all. Needs to move on and should not be re-signed if we cannot trade him. This topic has been beaten to a pulp.

However, a growing concern for me is that none of our d prospects have been able to push him out of the lineup. It is up to Ramage, Breen, Sieloff, cundari to push him out. Wotherspoon and Billings as well.

The opportunity is there and from where I stand the team isn't winning with Butler in this role. I'd like to think they would play the prospects if there was a chance they could be close to Butler, but they arent close at this point.

I fully agree that the job should be earned by one of the kids, not given.

But I think you are jumping the gun if you are disappointed that they haven't yet - it takes time to develop defensemen, and rushing them is often disastrous.

I have watched Wotherspoon fairly closely for a long time and I posted before the season that I fully expected that it would take him time to get the pro game. He is not a guy that comes in and wows everyone. He slowly, steadily improves. I think keeping him in the A all this year and maybe some or all of next year is the right way to go.

Ramage isn't huge and he needed some time to learn the pro game as well. Personally, I am not as high on him as Tspoon, but let's give him some time and see how much he can develop.

Breen has been injured much of the year and that has held him back.

Same for Sieloff, who I am very high on. And even though he probably isn't as good a defenseman as Tspoon, his game should translate to the NHL quicker, just due to his strength and the role he would likely play (more limited).

Billins has been better than expected, but is really a Russell clone and there isn't room for another small d-man.

The only 'disappointment' has been Cundari and I am not going to write him, or anyone else off in 20 games.

Patience - I think one of them pushes Butler out by the end of the year. Especially now that we have Smid in the mix as well.

[Flash Walken]

I don't think the Flames have a single defender in the system capable of pushing out one of Calgary's current top 6 in the next year or two.

Without getting into the Butler discussion, the small examples we've seen from Calgary's defensive prospects this year has not been promising. Cundari looked the most NHL ready last season, but so far hasn't appeared to sniff a callup. Is that because he hasn't earned it? is it part of the reason he was cut so early?

I don't see much from this current crop. The Dmen that will be part of the solution for this club going forward haven't been drafted yet, and they won't be guys competing with other guys for top 4 spots, they will be top pairing potential defenders.

Getting one or two veteran defenders per offseason is going to be a large part of the strategy going forward for the next several years, whether they are signed as free agents like Wideman, or traded for like O'Brien. It's going to have to be ice a semblance of an NHL lineup. Hopefully, since Calgary hit a home run with Monahan, they are able to find similar luck as early as this year's first rounder. It would go a long way towards shortening the rebuild time frame to get a couple of top 4 defenders from the first 3 rounds of this draft.

With Poirier, Monahan, Gaudreau looking very promising at forward, the next step should be mining defenders and letting the best ones stick. In 2 years, Chicago drafted Babchuk, Keith, Wisniewski, Byfuglien and Seabrook. 2 guys in the first round, 1 in the second, 2 after the third round. That kind of homerun jumpstarts a contender.

[Heavy Jack]

^^ Great post.

I like the fact that though we don't have near as deep a pool on D for prospects we still have a good base to start with when looking at Ramage, Wotherspoon, Sieloff, Kanzig, Culkin, Kulak, Rafikov

No major names jump out but all have been doing quite well on their teams and I think one more year of development paired with a draft emphasizing D and we could see a dramatic shift in the depth on the back end for this organization.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't think the Flames have a single defender in the system capable of pushing out one of Calgary's current top 6 in the next year or two.

Without getting into the Butler discussion, the small examples we've seen from Calgary's defensive prospects this year has not been promising. Cundari looked the most NHL ready last season, but so far hasn't appeared to sniff a callup. Is that because he hasn't earned it? is it part of the reason he was cut so early?

I don't see much from this current crop. The Dmen that will be part of the solution for this club going forward haven't been drafted yet, and they won't be guys competing with other guys for top 4 spots, they will be top pairing potential defenders.

Getting one or two veteran defenders per offseason is going to be a large part of the strategy going forward for the next several years, whether they are signed as free agents like Wideman, or traded for like O'Brien. It's going to have to be ice a semblance of an NHL lineup. Hopefully, since Calgary hit a home run with Monahan, they are able to find similar luck as early as this year's first rounder. It would go a long way towards shortening the rebuild time frame to get a couple of top 4 defenders from the first 3 rounds of this draft.

With Poirier, Monahan, Gaudreau looking very promising at forward, the next step should be mining defenders and letting the best ones stick. In 2 years, Chicago drafted Babchuk, Keith, Wisniewski, Byfuglien and Seabrook. 2 guys in the first round, 1 in the second, 2 after the third round. That kind of homerun jumpstarts a contender.

Entirely disagree.

I will be stunned if Seiloff isnt a full time NHL player next season....and at the expense of Butler is my guess.

[Enoch Root]

Wotherspoon will be too, but he might need another year in Abby first

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I don't think the Flames have a single defender in the system capable of pushing out one of Calgary's current top 6 in the next year or two.

Without getting into the Butler discussion, the small examples we've seen from Calgary's defensive prospects this year has not been promising. Cundari looked the most NHL ready last season, but so far hasn't appeared to sniff a callup. Is that because he hasn't earned it? is it part of the reason he was cut so early?

I don't see much from this current crop. The Dmen that will be part of the solution for this club going forward haven't been drafted yet, and they won't be guys competing with other guys for top 4 spots, they will be top pairing potential defenders.

Getting one or two veteran defenders per offseason is going to be a large part of the strategy going forward for the next several years, whether they are signed as free agents like Wideman, or traded for like O'Brien. It's going to have to be ice a semblance of an NHL lineup. Hopefully, since Calgary hit a home run with Monahan, they are able to find similar luck as early as this year's first rounder. It would go a long way towards shortening the rebuild time frame to get a couple of top 4 defenders from the first 3 rounds of this draft.

With Poirier, Monahan, Gaudreau looking very promising at forward, the next step should be mining defenders and letting the best ones stick. In 2 years, Chicago drafted Babchuk, Keith, Wisniewski, Byfuglien and Seabrook. 2 guys in the first round, 1 in the second, 2 after the third round. That kind of homerun jumpstarts a contender.

Sieloff seems to be the closest if he can get back and playing. He might see some time this year post-trade deadline and it wouldn't be surprising to me and many others if he makes the Flames full time next year. He really brings an element that we lack and could be the physical player we need who can play regularly in the top 6.

As for Cundari he hasn't earned it. He was bad in camp and by all reports I've read he hasn't been great in the AHL either.

Wotherspoon seems to be developing nicely and has been relied upon more and more at the AHL level. Not sure he's on the cusp of breaking in yet though. He may have a chance next fall. Ramage is a lot older and may have a shot next season as well.

Breen and Sieloff are the closest to displacing anybody. And Breen hasn't shown he's an NHLer yet. Sieloff hasn't played yet this season.

I think to say we have nobody who could displace anyone in the top 6 in the next 2 years is a bit pessimistic. But certainly there doesn't seem to be anybody in the next half year.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Sieloff seems to be the closest if he can get back and playing. He might see some time this year post-trade deadline and it wouldn't be surprising to me and many others if he makes the Flames full time next year. He really brings an element that we lack and could be the physical player we need who can play regularly in the top 6.

As for Cundari he hasn't earned it. He was bad in camp and by all reports I've read he hasn't been great in the AHL either.

Wotherspoon seems to be developing nicely and has been relied upon more and more at the AHL level. Not sure he's on the cusp of breaking in yet though. He may have a chance next fall. Ramage is a lot older and may have a shot next season as well.

Breen and Sieloff are the closest to displacing anybody. And Breen hasn't shown he's an NHLer yet. Sieloff hasn't played yet this season.

I think to say we have nobody who could displace anyone in the top 6 in the next 2 years is a bit pessimistic. But certainly there doesn't seem to be anybody in the next half year.

I guess I see it as all of those guys are pushing to be NHL players, but a top 4 defender for any of them appears to be the ultimate ceiling of the potential.

I'd be ecstatic if Sieloff pushed O'Brien off the roster, but even then, we're talking about a 6-7 battle, for the best prospect in the system. Could be a great depth defender in a few years, or as part of a trade to upgrade, but none at their absolute best are core contributors on a contending team. There's a Ryan Wilson in there or a Chris Tanev, but those are the kinds of players that have and haven't been making it in Calgary for awhile.

Brodie and Monahan have opened the door and given the glimpse of elite level prospects after a significant dry-spell for the franchise.

Another two defenders of the quality of Brodie is what the team is going to need going forward. Calgary just doesn't have those players, yet.

[Enoch Root]

Interesting that you mentioned Brodie because I was just going to point out that only a year or two ago, most fans were saying that Brodie had a 4/5 ceiling and that we didn't have any 'good' D prospects.

Obviously the tool box that they start with matters, but you never really know how far defensemen will develop. And Brodie was no more highly touted (in fact substantially less so) after junior.

[Duke43]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

30th in the league defensively with Wideman in the lineup. Not sure what direction you are expecting things to go? It's like an Oilers fan saying losing Dubnyk is going to cripple the Oilers. When you are bad you are bad.

Thing about Wideman is that he at times is an offensive catalyst, but like most of our D he has an enormity for brain farts, if not he skates to long in one spot.