Healthcare in America

[Azure]

Originally Posted by valo403

How did you come to the conclusion that there has ever been a single tier of health care?

The whole shared sacrifice angle that a few posters mentioned in this very thread implied that there is a single tier and outside of having a serious problem that needed quick attention there was no way to get away from long waiting lines. That is obviously not the case considering there are certain people in our country that receive quicker care for similar smaller issues.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

This is the part I'm unsure of. If that's the case, if I was a doctor, what's stopping me from opening a practice and charging people myself? Is there a difference between a person vs. a business? If some rich guy comes to my office and tells me he'll pay X dollars to have a certain surgery done right away, is that allowed? How is that different from the Flames paying me to treat their players right away?

Before moving on to where I am now, I use to work for AHW.

Physicians can be thought of as independent private contractors. As long as they are licensed to practice in the province (provided by the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta), they offer a service/skill to their patients.
The Canada Health Act is the Health law of the land, and it states that Canadians cannot be charged for services under the act. In most cases, this includes all basic health and medical procedures that most typical people recieve. It's the things that aren't generally covered (dentistry, vision care,...etc that come out of our pockets, or covered by supplementary health insurance, as say offered by your workplace/AB blue cross).

Physicians therefore treat their patients, and bill the government (hence we have a private health delivery system, but a public administrated system). In Alberta's case, AHS (or the Health Regions in any other province). AHS (and Health Regions everywhere else) is the operational arm of health care in the province. They are the ones that hire all other health care workers in Alberta. AHW is the government, so there function is to be the policy and the funder of Health care in Alberta. AHW is also where the physician's bill is paid.

In the Flames case, how I think it works is that the Flames pay a premium to have regular access to a physician. The premium generally an amount that covers what they losing out by not seeing patients, as they maintain office hours for the Flames (maybe something like 2-3 times a week, for 4 hours). The premium can also cover maintainence of medicine and other resources to have an office at the Dome to treat the Flames.
However, as per the Health Act, when the physician is treating Iggy's knee, that bill is sent to AHW.

For MRIs, the Flames pay the premium to get the diagnostic done at a private clinic, so they won't be cutting in line per say at a hospital (unless of course there is an opening. Pro tip, cancellations happen all the time, best to call and check to see if something earlier opens up).

Finally for surgeries. This one I'm not too sure of to be honest. The Flames probably have a sports surgeon on retainer (or possibly shared between all of the professional teams in Calgary including the Stamps..etc). The same rules would apply as above, however surgery requires hospital, nurses...etc, so I'm not sure that'll work without violating the Health Act or if it does require cutting the line. If there is enough teams to split the bill (Flames-Stamps-Hitman-University...), It might be possible that there is a private facility available, and the Flames just pay it out front. Otherwise, I can see service being done by flying down South to the States.

Lchoy

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

The whole shared sacrifice angle that a few posters mentioned in this very thread implied that there is a single tier and outside of having a serious problem that needed quick attention there was no way to get away from long waiting lines. That is obviously not the case considering there are certain people in our country that receive quicker care for similar smaller issues.

I'm just trying to figure out why you ever thought that every single person in the country just got in line for treatment. That has never been the case.

[LChoy]

<puts on government hat>

As explained above now, you can see how there can be a bit of conflict of interest with topics dealing with Health Reforms or Physician renumeration.

Most of the physicians operate by fee for service (billing services to the government). You can imagine those 2 min examinations by a physician for a check up, or to get a prescription write up are very good money makers for physicians. There is definitely an incentive to get people in and out very quickly.
There are alternative forms of payments, either as a salary (ie Army doctors, or some arrangement of physician collaborations centres) or capitation (% of patient population seen, useful say in rural and remote locations).

Hence, when we look at what nurses are trained to do, they can really do the doctor's notes, prescription refills, annual checkups...etc. It would be cheaper too as nurses and other health care providers are employed by the regions (usually salary). The idea being taking away the easy stuff and giving it to other health care providers, and leaving the doctors to focus on stuff where there advance training can be utilized. On the flip side though, doctors need to make money as they are the ones that pay the salary for their staff, their office space, and all the other costs of maintaining a practice. Also, with the way the medical insurance and liability is structured, they are ultimately on the hook if something happens to the patient

Anyways, just wanted to educate the masses how health care works. Just post or pm me with questions from the viewpoint of the government

[Azure]

If there are long waiting lines for smaller issues, which we all know there are, wouldn't it be more beneficial for the doctor who owns the building and pays all the other costs of running a practice because they would in theory be putting through more patients in the same amount of time, therefore allowing them to bill the government even more?

On the flipside, I would assume that nurses who have more advanced training would require a higher salary. Which I would say is fine, provided that they can help alleviate the waiting lines for small-time stuff, thereby allowing the doctors to focus more on what their speciality is.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by valo403

I'm just trying to figure out why you ever thought that every single person in the country just got in line for treatment. That has never been the case.

Outside of private diagnostic clinics, which IMO are a big plus, the whole idea of the universal system is that you get in line, and depending on how serious your problem is, you wait in line.

Obviously if you need triple bypass surgery, you won't wait in the line that long. Provided of course that there aren't x amount of doctors that can preform that surgery, and the number of patients who need triple bypass surgery are overwhelming, therefore you might get pushed down the line. And anyone who needs triple bypass surgery would be considered a serious patient.

What I'm seeing is an organization like the Flames being able to flaunt their money to hire doctors and specialists who can often preform certain procedures in the middle of a game. Having a x-ray done in the middle of a game after a player takes a shot off the foot is pretty common these days, and yet most other people would have to wait hours for an x-ray on a problem like that, and in my area, 2 more weeks for the results. Is that fair? Absolutely not. But what am I supposed to do about it? Sure, I might be able to afford private diagnostic care, but the next person might not, and therefore he has to wait.

Problem I see is that certain people prefer to bury their head in the sand when it comes to talk about privatizing even more of our health care system, for better or worse, without even realizing that we already have a two-tier system.

[Zevo]

There are private surgical facilities that do more minor surgeries that operate within a gray area of health care. My wife has managed a couple in B.C. and every couple of years the government checks in and tries to make sure they are not circumventing Canada health rules(they do though).

Anybody, in B.C. anyways, can jump the cue for stuff that is done at private facilities. Knee scopes, ACL/MCL repairs, shoulders, etc can all be done at private facilities if you want to pay for it.

[redforever]

Were the Flames players treated in the public health care system of Alberta, or perhaps through a private health care system, one of which is right in Calgary, the Copeman Center?

The Copeman Center provides private health care for the employees of all kinds of corporations.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

Outside of private diagnostic clinics, which IMO are a big plus, the whole idea of the universal system is that you get in line, and depending on how serious your problem is, you wait in line.

Obviously if you need triple bypass surgery, you won't wait in the line that long. Provided of course that there aren't x amount of doctors that can preform that surgery, and the number of patients who need triple bypass surgery are overwhelming, therefore you might get pushed down the line. And anyone who needs triple bypass surgery would be considered a serious patient.

What I'm seeing is an organization like the Flames being able to flaunt their money to hire doctors and specialists who can often preform certain procedures in the middle of a game. Having a x-ray done in the middle of a game after a player takes a shot off the foot is pretty common these days, and yet most other people would have to wait hours for an x-ray on a problem like that, and in my area, 2 more weeks for the results. Is that fair? Absolutely not. But what am I supposed to do about it? Sure, I might be able to afford private diagnostic care, but the next person might not, and therefore he has to wait.

Problem I see is that certain people prefer to bury their head in the sand when it comes to talk about privatizing even more of our health care system, for better or worse, without even realizing that we already have a two-tier system.

If you have your own x-ray machine why would it be unfair of you to use it? This reads like an appeal to some sort of socialist fantasy land where everyone has equal means and equal access. That never has, and never will, exist.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by valo403

If you have your own x-ray machine why would it be unfair of you to use it? This reads like an appeal to some sort of socialist fantasy land where everyone has equal means and equal access. That never has, and never will, exist.

The machine isn't the issue. Having access to a doctor at ANY time that will give you instant results is. That only happens when you're rich. Which would make us very similar to the US.

I know what you're saying, and I honestly don't have such a big problem with it. I would just prefer it if we had an open discussion on how private health care would benefit us. Everytime that subject comes up everyone starts saying we'll just become like the US, and yet we already DO have certain levels of private care.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by redforever

Were the Flames players treated in the public health care system of Alberta, or perhaps through a private health care system, one of which is right in Calgary, the Copeman Center?

The Copeman Center provides private health care for the employees of all kinds of corporations.

Just quickly going through their site, seems to me they just offer 'wellness' type programs. Nothing wrong with that.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Azure

The machine isn't the issue. Having access to a doctor at ANY time that will give you instant results is. That only happens when you're rich. Which would make us very similar to the US.

I know what you're saying, and I honestly don't have such a big problem with it. I would just prefer it if we had an open discussion on how private health care would benefit us. Everytime that subject comes up everyone starts saying we'll just become like the US, and yet we already DO have certain levels of private care.

Sorry, I thought you were arguing against the pseudo two tiered system we have in favor of a more strictly single tiered system.

I agree that there's a need for people to not bury their heads on this issue, allowing people to jump the line doesn't automatically create this free for all that spins into a fully privatized health care system. There's certainly plenty of fear mongering in that regard.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just quickly going through their site, seems to me they just offer 'wellness' type programs. Nothing wrong with that.

I know for a fact that companies can get group insurance for their employees at the Copeman Center...a friend of ours does exactly so.

I can not recall all the details about the Flames players and that incident from the past. What I would like to know is the Flames provide private health insurance for their players and employees at a center similar to the Copeman? or when the Flames bumped the line, did they do so in the public health system?

[The Yen Man]

I know everyone wants everything equal here when it comes to health care, but I think if done correctly and regulated properly, certain private health services for people who want to pay a premium to get faster service can help alleviate wait times for everyone else. I agree that instead of just saying no right away, we should at least explore the possibilities. At the end of the day, it's all about how to most efficiently and effectively deliver health care to every Canadian.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

Just quickly going through their site, seems to me they just offer 'wellness' type programs. Nothing wrong with that.

They have more than wellness programs. One of our friends subscribes to them yearly, out of her own pocket book, and gets more than tips on how to live healthy. She can get regular GP care as well as referals to specialists.

The friend of ours who is insured through work to use the Copeman center is seeing cardiologists for his atrial fibrillation condition.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by redforever

I know for a fact that companies can get group insurance for their employees at the Copeman Center...a friend of ours does exactly so.

I realize that. But what kind of 'care' do they provide? It doesn't seem like its full-fledged health care.

I can not recall all the details about the Flames players and that incident from the past. What I would like to know is the Flames provide private health insurance for their players and employees at a center similar to the Copeman? or when the Flames bumped the line, did they do so in the public health system?

I'm actually wondering the same thing. In fact that is basically the crux of my argument.

Flames players are getting treatment somewhere, and I swear I recall one of the players tweeting that they had surgery at a 'public' hospital this past year, and it was a procedure that most of us had to wait for. That specific player had the surgery done within a week.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

I know everyone wants everything equal here when it comes to health care, but I think if done correctly and regulated properly, certain private health services for people who want to pay a premium to get faster service can help alleviate wait times for everyone else. I agree that instead of just saying no right away, we should at least explore the possibilities. At the end of the day, it's all about how to most efficiently and effectively deliver health care to every Canadian.

I wish somebody would do a study on how the addition of private diagnostic clinics affected the public system.

That would go a long way in proving/disproving the affect MORE private health care has in a system like the one Canada has.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by Azure

I wish somebody would do a study on how the addition of private diagnostic clinics affected the public system.

That would go a long way in proving/disproving the affect MORE private health care has in a system like the one Canada has.

What, and take away from other important studies that I hear everyday on 660 news like:

1.) Sitting for too long and being inactive increases the risk of health problems
2.) Not sleeping regularly makes one tired

And other awesome studies that I would have never known had they not done it?

In all seriousness, I know they're usually not Canadian studies, but it blows my mind the amount of useless studies that have out there. And it's always pretty educated people conducting these things too.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

What, and take away from other important studies that I hear everyday on 660 news like:

1.) Sitting for too long and being inactive increases the risk of health problems
2.) Not sleeping regularly makes one tired

And other awesome studies that I would have never known had they not done it?

In all seriousness, I know they're usually not Canadian studies, but it blows my mind the amount of useless studies that have out there. And it's always pretty educated people conducting these things too.

The problem is that you're not reading the actual, published scientific study but rather reading the conclusions that the newspapers babble out to the masses.

I suggest you read the actual studies first before expressing incredulity at the educated people conducting them.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Here we are, 18 months after this thread died a slow death.

The ACA has kicked in, despite Ted Cruz' ridiculous attempt to defund it that cost the government millions of dollars. Evidently, the technology to run the ACA insurance exchange doesn't exist. The President is exasperated that the thing doesn't work. Secretary Sebelius claims that the President was completely unaware of the exchange's impending failure.

I find that difficult to believe. This is his baby. This is his legacy. I can't imagine that he wasn't knee deep in Sebelius' business as this thing was approaching roll out in an effort to be apprised of the progress. However, I will give him the benefit of the doubt. He is without question a busy man. Sebelius, on the other hand, should resign. The fact that she didn't advise the President about the known issues with the Exchange is an utter failure on her part to perform her duties. She has made him look like a fool.

My concerns about ACA earlier in this thread are proving to be true, at least initially. The American government can't administer ANYTHING successfully. That is the fundamental problem I have with ACA. It is a Federally administered program, and as such it may be doomed for failure like so many others before it. I hope they fix the exchange and I hope the ACA is wildly successful, but this is not a good start no matter how you spin it.