Pats are a bunch of cheaters...

[Flames in 07]

As long as they are early picks. I'd be ok with taking a #1 in this case. He's a repeat offender.

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

As long as they are early picks. I'd be ok with taking a #1 in this case. He's a repeat offender.

I cant see them losing a #1 pick. That's like getting fined $20 million (about what a first rounder earns).

I mid-round pick... maybe 4th rounder would be fair. This was a regular season game and I dont think Mr. Kraft (a very powerful man in the NFL) would stand by a #1 pick being taken for something...so trivial.

[Flames in 07]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

I cant see them losing a #1 pick. That's like getting fined $20 million (about what a first rounder earns).

I mid-round pick... maybe 4th rounder would be fair. This was a regular season game and I dont think Mr. Kraft (a very powerful man in the NFL) would stand by a #1 pick being taken for something...so trivial.

You are probably right that they won't get docked a #1, but they should.

BTW ever coached football? It's the easiest sport to win if you know what the other team is doing. Football is far more strategic than any other sport I can think of outside of Chess. It is all about planning for onfield strengths and weaknesses and anticipating tendencies.

If I knew when a safty had backfield responsibility (IE SS is on a RB or even a TE) in man coverage I can score a TD 5 out of 10 times from anywhere on the field. I think NE knew of 2 such cases.

[Sylvanfan]

They should force Bellichek to wear a suit for the rest of his life. He'd resign his job in a minute.

[burn_baby_burn]

Even if the Pats do lose a draft pick. It won't hurt them for this season (unless they can't win without cheating, then they are screwed). They could still win a Super Bowl.

[Jason14h]

If you're not cheating, you're not trying!

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Even if the Pats do lose a draft pick. It won't hurt them for this season (unless they can't win without cheating, then they are screwed). They could still win a Super Bowl.

They probably will win the Super Bowl... I am reading they will lose probably a 2nd and a 5th, because taking away a late rounder won't hurt them too much. Only the 1st and 2nd rounders from this year made the team anyway...

[fredr123]

Darren Rovell (CNBC's Sports Biz) weighs in calling this possibly the worst scandal in the NFL yet: http://www.cnbc.com/id/20732122

Geoffrey Rapp (Sports Law Blog) considers the legal aspects of the situation including previous cases where draft picks have been taken away as punishment and looks at the parallels between sign stealing and corporate espionage: http://sports-law.blogspot.com/2007/...crets-and.html

[Bobblehead]

I don't mind guys on the bench or in the coaches box watching and trying to pick up signals. They are using their natural abilities to try and discern what the opponents are going to do. But when they start using cameras and other technology to do the work then they have crossed the line.

If it is an ability they learned or were born with, great. But beyond that they are crossing the line.

And I also would love to see the radios come out of the QB helmets.

[burn_baby_burn]

I think this is huge. It really could ruin the reputation of that entire organization. If it all gets proven I think it should keep Bellicheck out of the Hall of Fame. Everyone is openly amazed at how the Patriots can be so competitive and win 3 of 4 Super Bowls in the salary cap era. Looks like we may have our answer.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I think this is huge. It really could ruin the reputation of that entire organization. If it all gets proven I think it should keep Bellicheck out of the Hall of Fame. Everyone is openly amazed at how the Patriots can be so competitive and win 3 of 4 Super Bowls in the salary cap era. Looks like we may have our answer.

Ever think it was just the one guy doing it to make himself look better in his position within the organization? I am sure others knew about it, however you can not pin point their 3 superbowls on something like this. IMO the opposition should do a better job of hiding/changing their signals so they can't be videotaped or watched then its no one fault but their own.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Ever think it was just the one guy doing it to make himself look better in his position within the organization? I am sure others knew about it, however you can not pin point their 3 superbowls on something like this. IMO the opposition should do a better job of hiding/changing their signals so they can't be videotaped or watched then its no one fault but their own.

You can't expect teams to compete with technology. Most likely is the allowance of a transmitter in the defensive captains helmet to transmit plays just like the qb's. That is the only way to ensure this doesn't happen again.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Ever think it was just the one guy doing it to make himself look better in his position within the organization? I am sure others knew about it,

Also if you read the CNBC article this is the 4th time they've been caught, but the first time with evidence. That kind of blows away your one man show.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Flames in 07

I wouldn't cut the jets short, if you knew say half the plays, I'd guess that is worth 28 - 35 points easy. It's a very easy sport if you know what the other team is going to do.

###. This should be a forfeit for sure. If you are cheating and you get caught you should lose the game. Why should a repeat offender who obviously thinks that they can beat the system be treated with leniency? Why should the "they would've won anyway" argument be valid? Maybe Ben Johnson would've won the 100m if he were clean...but he wasn't.

[fredr123]

If you're Bellicheck, why do you try to pull this kind of stuff with the Mangenius on the other side? Surely he would have been privy to these shenanigans during his time in New England.

[transplant99]

I cant see them losing a #1 pick. That's like getting fined $20 million (about what a first rounder earns).

I certainly can...and more.

This is Roger Goodell we are talking about here. A man who has made it abundandtly clear that he will not tolerate off-field issues with players or coaches and has backed up his word.

Now comes news that one of the clubs he has control over is breaking the rules? Unnaceptable in his eyes I bet. What is he saying when he doesnt punish severely the very teams that should be setting an example for their players?

This thing is gonna get ugly for Belicheat and the Pats.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by HOOT

Ever think it was just the one guy doing it to make himself look better in his position within the organization? I am sure others knew about it, however you can not pin point their 3 superbowls on something like this. IMO the opposition should do a better job of hiding/changing their signals so they can't be videotaped or watched then its no one fault but their own.

What position would that be? You think the Pats woudn't wonder why a member of their organization was taping the opposing teams coaches (if they were totally innocent of this)? If the Pats were against this. How would this one individual use this information to his advantage within the organization? If he was a position coach or a co-ordinator he woud not have time during the game to tape the opposition. Sounds like this individuals sole responsabilty, during the game, was to tape the opposing teams coaches.

Plus it doesn't explain the allegations of putting microphones on the defensive lineman to record the offensive shifts and audibles at the line of scrimage. Looks like, if proven, this was an elaborate plan to gain an unfair advantage on the opposition.

If your a Pats fan I can understand why you woudn't want to believe it. I woudn't either. Much like Michael Vick fans must have a tough time dealing with his reality.

[Clever_Iggy]

Interesting little clipping from the September 3rd, 2007 Sports Illustrated on Peyton Manning (p. 77).

"I constantly think about taems stealing our signals. I know New England films me when we're up there. I know Mike Shanahan has tried."

"We played Oakland a few years ago and after the game [linebacker] Greg Biekert said they had our signals. Well, in the first half, I think we had 375 yards of offense..."

Interesting that Manning knows that signals are constantly being stolen and according to him both New England and Denver try to video tape signals. He also says that he "tries to change mine up and mix it up, especially when we play teams with a guy who've left here."

From this article it sure sounds like video taping signals is not so isolated. New England is just the unfortunate team to get caught with it's hand in the cookie jar.

[Bobblehead]

All teams know their signals are being stolen. That is why guys cut from one team are picked up by an opposing team.

As long as they are doing it by human observation, there is no issue. Indeed, you can't make rules telling people they can't watch the other team or remember what they did; that would be just inane.

But when teams start filming sidelines and can rewind to look for patterns, then the technology is doing the work. People seeing and remember, great; machines doing the seeing and remembering, bad.

Edit: Take a look a Peter King's Monday Morning QB - Ten Things I Think, #3

"It's the most overrated thing in sports,'' said Peyton Manning, who went on to give me a great example of how a foreign agent can actually hurt a team's preparation. "The classic was when we're playing Cleveland and they got [former Colts backup quarterback and offensive assistant] Kelly Holcomb and Bruce Arians. It's Tony Dungy's first year, maybe 2002. So the Browns grill Holcomb all week, 'You got to give us something' and he says, 'I'm telling you, Peyton's going to change it up. He knows I'm here, he's going to give you a dummy audible early. I'm telling you, he's not stupid. So, just play your keys.'

"They're up 16-3, I think, at the half," said Manning. "Second half, we get a good drive going and it's fourth-and-three. So we run our bread and butter play, a little five-yard under route. Well, I signal the play and Holcomb -- it's the same signal -- so he says, 'Ah, now I'm going to help them.' So he says, 'They're running the five-yard under play! Five-yard under play!"

"And so you can see it on the film -- they're going, 'Watch the slants, watch the slants.' So they load up, all inside technique, and they go into a man defense. Well, I see this and I see the defenders all change up -- that's the thing about the no-huddle, I can see this -- and I kept the receivers doing the same thing and I checked to a zone running play and it's only six guys who gotta know -- the linemen and the back [James Mungro]. And he goes 29 yards untouched for a touchdown. And so their guys go to Holcomb, all pissed off, 'So, they're running a slant, huh? Thanks a freaking lot, Holcomb.'

[burn_baby_burn]

Its obvious that teams try to steal signals. Thats why we see John Gruden holding the laminated sheet over his face when he calls a play. But to directly tape a coach on the sideline. As well as putting michrophones on the defensive linemen. Is really going over the line.