The whack-a-mole game continues in Iraq...

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

so you're saying that if i sell you a gun and a bullet, i'm not selling you a weapon? the gun and bullet are useless by themselves, and it's up to you to put them together to do any damage with it. the US sold chemical weapons to Iraq in the essense that they gave them all the materials they needed with full knowledge of what they would be used for. it doesn't matter if they sold just the pieces or the fully built weapon, the end result is the same

How about this....

I sell you a truck and a tonne of fertilizer knowing that you are likely to turn it into a massive bomb.

No weapon but guilty nontheless.

But again.,....that "support" ended...did it not?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I am not sure how I am in opposition to you? There are still people who are ignorant of the history of the US foreign policy in Iraq. I won't argue that the US gave Saddam the ability to manufacture chemical weapons that were used on the Iranians and Kurds because it served their purpose. The purpose was to help a so called "moderate" regime not get overrun by the Iranians allowing a Radical Muslim goverment control 1/2?? of the Mid - East Oil reserves. And yes a war that the so called "moderate" regime started.

But for some reason people have forgotten or ignored or do not know the fact that the US stopped supporting Saddam about 1989-90. Was that not a good thing? Was that NOT the right thing for them to do?

As well....people have the blinders on to what the Europeans have done in Iraq at the same time and after the US stopped supporting Saddam.

by saying that people exaggerated the timeframe or willfully choose to ignore the timeframes, and esp. by spelling things out in caps, like I am some grade schooler...

Saddam didn't become a dictator after 1989-90: he was a dictator well before that, his so-called 'rape rooms' existed before that, the mass executions occurred before that. All under the watchful eye of the US...what happened then, what happened with the mujahideen, what will happen with the new generation of jihadis are all part of the blowback the US continues to generate through their missteps.

You want to know why the euros aren't being called out? Because 1) they knew that the war was not legal (the British people knew this too, and Blair chose to ignore the voice of the people, in effect, his employers) and 2) they are not involved in the war!

This has been a US led, US directed, and US invented proposition from the get go...The Project for the New American Century has proven to be as worthless as the paper its written on...

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

by saying that people exaggerated the timeframe or willfully choose to ignore the timeframes, and esp. by spelling things out in caps, like I am some grade schooler...

Saddam didn't become a dictator after 1989-90: he was a dictator well before that, his so-called 'rape rooms' existed before that, the mass executions occurred before that. All under the watchful eye of the US...what happened then, what happened with the mujahideen, what will happen with the new generation of jihadis are all part of the blowback the US continues to generate through their missteps.

You want to know why the euros aren't being called out? Because 1) they knew that the war was not legal (the British people knew this too, and Blair chose to ignore the voice of the people, in effect, his employers) and 2) they are not involved in the war!

This has been a US led, US directed, and US invented proposition from the get go...The Project for the New American Century has proven to be as worthless as the paper its written on...

For someone who complains about lack of knowledge about American Foreign policy in Iraq you sure miss a whole gaping whck of it. A full 12 years! As well you input the Soviet-Afghan war there too. So much for a timeline or placing what happened into context.

We start here...
Saddam didn't become a dictator after 1989-90: he was a dictator well before that, his so-called 'rape rooms' existed before that, etc...

Then you jump a full 12 years...
This has been a US led, US directed, and US invented proposition from the get go...The Project for the New American Century has proven to be as worthless as the paper its written on..

What happened to the years inbetween those? Don't they count too? Or should we ignore those?

As for your European comment....since they didn't join the Iraq invasion they get off scottfree for doing what the Americans did?

You ignored my questions. The American stopped supporting Saddam. Wasn't that the right thing to do? Wasn't that a good thing to do?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

How about this....

I sell you a truck and a tonne of fertilizer knowing that you are likely to turn it into a massive bomb.

No weapon but guilty nontheless.

Pretty much.

You are essentially admitting you are wrong and I think you knew it all along. "Guilty nonetheless". So why the charade? Changing the subject?

This Iraq war has turned into a complete and utter disaster for the Americans. I honestly can't believe people are out there making excuses for it.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Pretty much.

You are essentially admitting you are wrong and I think you knew it all along. "Guilty nonetheless". So why the charade? Changing the subject?

This Iraq war has turned into a complete and utter disaster for the Americans. I honestly can't believe people are out there making excuses for it.

No I was right. They DID NOT give them weapons but are guilty of helping Saddam commit those crimes because they (Europeans too) looked the other way because it suited their needs at the time.

I am not sure how this is an excuse for the current war being that there are separated by a good decade but... whatever shakes your tree fella.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No I was right. They DID NOT give them weapons but are guilty of helping Saddam commit those crimes because they (Europeans too) looked the other way because it suited their needs at the time.

I am not sure how this is an excuse for the current war being that there are separated by a good decade but... whatever shakes your tree fella.

Here's why it matters, try and follow this.

1980s, US Sells Iraq "components" for chemical/biological weapons. Iraq uses them. Iraq invades neighbour, US forces them back, destroys much of the infrastructure, and then sanctions the country until the next war begins.

We all agree on this, yes? Yes?

Care to explain to me how in the years after the infrastructure of the capital city was destroyed, and country was placed under crippling sanctions, Saddam was able to aquire more or different chemical/weapons other than the ones that were 'made' from the 'components' america gave him?

Did Osama give them to him?

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by HOZ

For someone who complains about lack of knowledge about American Foreign policy in Iraq you sure miss a whole gaping whck of it. A full 12 years! As well you input the Soviet-Afghan war there too. So much for a timeline or placing what happened into context.

We start here...
Saddam didn't become a dictator after 1989-90: he was a dictator well before that, his so-called 'rape rooms' existed before that, etc...

Then you jump a full 12 years...
This has been a US led, US directed, and US invented proposition from the get go...The Project for the New American Century has proven to be as worthless as the paper its written on..

What happened to the years inbetween those? Don't they count too? Or should we ignore those?

As for your European comment....since they didn't join the Iraq invasion they get off scottfree for doing what the Americans did?

You ignored my questions. The American stopped supporting Saddam. Wasn't that the right thing to do? Wasn't that a good thing to do?

No, it was the right thing to do - its not like they had a choice...saddam invaded Kuwait!

with respect to the invasion, it was clearly wrong - they took their eye off the ball in Afghanistan, before things had truly settled down...as a result, the Taliban and the warlords have had the chance to regroup and are now a threat...just wait until the generation of Iraqis who have suffered become young men - esp. since the talk now is that they need a "strong man" as the next Iraqi PM...

Look, no one denies Saddam was a dictator. But the US helped him to become that - the 12 intervening years of what? becoming more of a dictator? Saddam was at the height of his power and influence just prior to invading Kuwait - in no small part to US support...

People seem to believe that guys like Saddam and OBL appear out of the ether: they don't. They are created. And when their masters lose control of them, they act incredulous, like, 'oh we had no idea he was such a bad guy'. That is patently false and is the problem with not looking at history for lessons.

And why should the euros be blamed for Saddam? In your arguments, you don't even place blame on the US, who were the primary supporters of Saddam. You can't have it both ways.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

No I was right. They DID NOT give them weapons but are guilty of helping Saddam commit those crimes because they (Europeans too) looked the other way because it suited their needs at the time.

"Yeah, he shut the windows, turned on the gas, lit the blowtorch and ran out of the house, but he did not start the fire. Oh sure, he's guilty but you can't say he started it".

You had enough of this kind of thing yet? Is it sinking in?

Originally Posted by HOZ

I am not sure how this is an excuse for the current war being that there are separated by a good decade but... whatever shakes your tree fella.

Seriously? We are talking about "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION" which was, you know, the reason for the war we happen to be talking about.

[jonesy]

To find the WMD, look for the secret bunkers deep under the Euphrates.
Seriously.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by jonesy

To find the WMD, look for the secret bunkers deep under the Euphrates.
Seriously.

They don't exist. Seriously. The asset that suggested such nonsense was exposed as liar and nontrustworthy in the first 72 hours of his interviews. The United States has been in Iraq for over five years now. There are no WMDs. There never were any WMDs. Iraq destroyed them in compliance with the UN's demands and inspections proved just that. The United States occupation has put an exclamation point on that fact. Seriously.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

They don't exist. Seriously. The asset that suggested such nonsense was exposed as liar and nontrustworthy in the first 72 hours of his interviews. The United States has been in Iraq for over five years now. There are no WMDs. There never were any WMDs. Iraq destroyed them in compliance with the UN's demands and inspections proved just that. The United States occupation has put an exclamation point on that fact. Seriously.

sadly Lanny, there are those who have convinced themselves that the WMD were spirited out of the country to syria (now how they did that under the watchful eye of US satellites for months prior to the actual invasion, I'll never know, esp since Rummy said they knew where they were)...

oh well, there are those of us who still believe in Santa too...

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by jonesy

To find the WMD, look for the secret bunkers deep under the Euphrates.
Seriously.

Jimmy Durante told me that they're buried under a big 'W'.

[Flash Walken]

I heard they are in the endzone at Giants Stadium.

[jonesy]

I meant seriously secret bunkers.
(not ones that have been debunked)

[Dion]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Jimmy Durante told me that they're buried under a big 'W'.

I thought they were buired with Jimmy Hoffa

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I meant seriously secret bunkers.
(not ones that have been debunked)

you have to be joking right?

"Trust me guys, the WMD's are there! They just haven't been found because they're in a secret bunker that no one knows about! You ask how do I know about the bunkers then? Well you see it's simple really, I....bunker....saw...Iraq....Saddam...." *head explodes*

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I meant seriously secret bunkers.
(not ones that have been debunked)

think about what you are saying here:

some guy on a Calgary Flames message knows the general location of the WMDs that the entire intelligence community and the US military can't find after 5 years....

if true, you ought to be contacting the Pentagon and collecting a massive reward rather than posting it on here don't you think?

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

No, it was the right thing to do - its not like they had a choice...saddam invaded Kuwait!

with respect to the invasion, it was clearly wrong - they took their eye off the ball in Afghanistan, before things had truly settled down...as a result, the Taliban and the warlords have had the chance to regroup and are now a threat...just wait until the generation of Iraqis who have suffered become young men - esp. since the talk now is that they need a "strong man" as the next Iraqi PM...

Look, no one denies Saddam was a dictator. But the US helped him to become that - the 12 intervening years of what? becoming more of a dictator? Saddam was at the height of his power and influence just prior to invading Kuwait - in no small part to US support...

People seem to believe that guys like Saddam and OBL appear out of the ether: they don't. They are created. And when their masters lose control of them, they act incredulous, like, 'oh we had no idea he was such a bad guy'. That is patently false and is the problem with not looking at history for lessons.

And why should the euros be blamed for Saddam? In your arguments, you don't even place blame on the US, who were the primary supporters of Saddam. You can't have it both ways.

I do blame the US. And I can't disagree with what you have said. Hence it is the US' responsibility to take care of their mess.

Whether this invasion was the right thing or not...it sure turned into a real mess and now it is the US' job, not to run away, but to clean it up.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

think about what you are saying here:

some guy on a Calgary Flames message knows the general location of the WMDs that the entire intelligence community and the US military can't find after 5 years....

if true, you ought to be contacting the Pentagon and collecting a massive reward rather than posting it on here don't you think?

Uhhh I am sure he is joking.

Because the WMD's are not in secret bunkers. Everyone knows that! They are in super secret military bunkers.

[jonesy]

I am sure Lanny understood that I was simply carrying on the wordplay with the use of the word 'serious', and threw in an additional one on bunkers and debunking, based on his viewpoint.

My personal/political/religious views appear to be at odds with him, but I will admit, he is a clever and probably understood that.

I hope he doesn't hit me with a variation of his oft used 'head in duff' themed comments.