Mennonites leaving Quebec after government closes school

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by freeschools

I see, not believing in the *theory* of evolution means not getting an education or not being able to become a perfectly well-trained mechanic, farmer or computer technician.

Well if there education isn't to a level where they can further themselves to go into those careers, then I guess it can't. I don't see why keeping a curriculum of minimum requirements is such a problem. You keep applying a lot of your personal experience as a home schooler, while it is interesting, I don't really see how it applies to this case. While you may teach your children one way, I don't think you can speak for the whole home schooling crowd. I would assume that since they shut the school down they are not coming close to a level where the children are learning five languages, far from close.

What are your trying to imply by the asterisks around the word theory?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by freeschools

You exaggerate, this makes you less credible.

I'm not exaggerating. I've worked (although I've been out of that business for years now) with a lot of kids who were home-schooled based on religious reasons. Many of them were either illiterate or so far behind other children their age that they had to receive intensive remedial instruction just to catch up. Often that "catch up" was necessary because the kid would be entering or re-entering a real elementary school in the fall and was going to be painfully behind the other kids.

Luckily for all involved in that scenario, mom realized her high school diploma, Sunday School hocus-pocus and complete inability to teach a child anything was not going to cut it.

If you are a good home-school teacher then bully for you. From my experience, most people are not.

Those unnecessary "qualifications" you lament are there for a reason. Teachers have a pretty important job. Insisting that they learn a few things and show some amount of dedication to the profession before being charged with the education of 30 7-year-olds isn't unreasonable.

You can spare the French and attempted pedantry. It doesn't exactly add to your credibility.

[MarchHare]

I see, not believing in the *theory* of evolution

The word "theory" doesn't mean what you think it means.

[freeschools]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Well if there education isn't to a level where they can further themselves to go into those careers, then I guess it can't.

I think you misunderstood me: the knowledge of the theory of evolution is necessary for very FEW careers. Unless, you are a paleontologist, a prehistorian, a biologist let's say. For most people it is of no use, I therefore see no reason the governement should impose this theory.

I don't see why keeping a curriculum of minimum requirements is such a problem.

Because this is really not very important to function as a useful citizen, so why do you want to violate the conscience or beliefs of these Mennonites. Violence, limitation of any freedom or imposition should be justified by greater good. Sorry, I cannot see it here (except Darwinist dogmatism).

You keep applying a lot of your personal experience as a home schooler,

Sorry, only answering the believer in "qualification" and "State certification".

while it is interesting, I don't really see how it applies to this case.

Well, it does: I'm not certificied by the super-Sate of Quebec with 450 hours of psychopedagogics, etc. and I still teach!

While you may teach your children one way, I don't think you can speak for the whole home schooling crowd. I would assume that since they shut the school down they are not coming close to a level where the children are learning five languages, far from close.

I LIVE in the village, I know them. THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT CLOSE THE SCHOOL FOR REASONS of not achieving a certain STANDARD, but because they don't follow the Holy State Curriculum and they do not employ an Secular teacher, NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEVEL OF THE COURSES OFFERED OR THE TEACHER ! Just administrative reasons to guarantee the State of Quebec's Monopoly on all curricula taught (basically make sure all children will be leftists, progay, etc.).

I thought this was mentioned several times.

What are your trying to imply by the asterisks around the word theory?

That there are holes in the theory (the odds of the macromutations happening within the timeframe known are just too incredibly low) and that even, according to Karl Popper's criteria, it is an unscientific one (since it unfalsifiable). Note that personally, I don't mind the theory as a general framework but really it is still full of holes and I don't see why it should be imposed.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Drunk Skunk

I can say I'm honestly surprised at how religion is looked at in this thread. It's disappointing.

well it's too bad that you're disappointed, but i won't apologize for my views. i hate everything about organized religion, and to take these kids away from a public school environment and put them in a home school where science takes a backseat to a magic man in the sky is what i find disappointing. these kids will be brainwashed to think the same as everyone else in their cult and won't have the opportunity to explore for themselves what they want to believe or have the opportunities that most other kids have. instead they'll be left with a substandard set of life skills and be left with the only real choice of staying within the clan and perpetuating the cycle

[Thor]

That there are holes in the theory (the odds of the macromutations happening within the timeframe known are just too incredibly low) and that even, according to Karl Popper's criteria, it is an unscientific one (since it unfalsifiable). Note that personally, I don't mind the theory as a general framework but really it is still full of holes and I don't see why it should be imposed.

/cry

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by freeschools

I think you misunderstood me: the knowledge of the theory of evolution is necessary for very FEW careers. Unless, you are a paleontologist, a prehistorian, a biologist let's say. For most people it is of no use, I therefore see no reason the governement should impose this theory.

A knowledge of Shakespeare, trigonometry and the War of 1812 are necessary for very FEW careers as well.

Are they out?

Originally Posted by freeschools

(basically make sure all children will be leftists, progay, etc.).

Do you really think that is what they are after?

[urban1]

##### de merde! for this thread!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I'm not exaggerating. I've worked (although I've been out of that business for years now) with a lot of kids who were home-schooled based on religious reasons. Many of them were either illiterate or so far behind other children their age that they had to receive intensive remedial instruction just to catch up. Often that "catch up" was necessary because the kid would be entering or re-entering a real elementary school in the fall and was going to be painfully behind the other kids.

Luckily for all involved in that scenario, mom realized her high school diploma, Sunday School hocus-pocus and complete inability to teach a child anything was not going to cut it.

If you are a good home-school teacher then bully for you. From my experience, most people are not.

Those unnecessary "qualifications" you lament are there for a reason. Teachers have a pretty important job. Insisting that they learn a few things and show some amount of dedication to the profession before being charged with the education of 30 7-year-olds isn't unreasonable.

You can spare the French and attempted pedantry. It doesn't exactly add to your credibility.

Your experience are quite different from mine and statistics I have seen. Though I am very open to seeing anything contrary.

From NEHRI

Academics

• A nationwide study (Ray, 1990), using a random sample of 1,516 families from one organization's membership, found home educated students to be scoring, on average, at or above the 80th percentile in all areas on standardized achievement tests. Note: The national average on standardized achievement tests is the 50th percentile.
• Wartes (1989) found that home school students in Washington consistently score at the 66th percentile on the Stanford Achievement Test, with their strongest scores in science, listening, vocabulary, and word reading.
• Home education students in Montana scored at the 72nd percentile on standardized achievement tests (Ray, 1990).
• The State of Tennessee (1988) reported that the home educated in that state averaged about the 83rd percentile in reading and about the 77th percentile in math on standardized achievement tests.
• The state of Oregon (1988) found that 73% of the home school students who were tested scored above average. Note: The national average is for 50% to score above average.
• The research findings are consistent that the home educated do equal to or better than conventional school students on achievement tests.

Social and Emotional Adjustment

• Dr. Johnson (1991) concluded that home educators carefully address the socialization needs of their children in every area studied (i.e., personal identity, personal destiny, values and moral development, autonomy, relationships, sexuality, and social skills).
• Studying actual observed behavior, Dr. Shyers (1992) found the home educated had significantly lower problem behavior scores than do their conventional school agemates. And the home educated have positive self-concepts.
• Dr. Taylor (1986) found that the home educated have significantly higher self concepts than those in public schools.
• The home schooled are well adjusted socially and emotionally like their private school comparison group. The home educated, however, are less peer dependent than the private school students (Delahooke, 1986).
• Dr. Montgomery (1989) found that home schooled students are just as involved in out-of-school and extracurricular activities that predict leadership in adulthood as are those in the comparison private school (that was comprised of students more involved than those in public schools).

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How elitist of you. Oh, and fascist too. Bravo.

Nevermind that these people have had this closed culture and community for hundreds of years. Their 'ignorant' and 'brainwashed' ways are so dangerous.

Makes me sick.

I wasn't replying SOLELY to you btw.

Last time I checked, being elite was a good thing, but nevermind that.

If you are willing to keep your children ignorant of science and therefore unable to function in society to further a "closed culture" I call it a cult, not a school. Which is probably why the government is closing it down.

Feelings and belief aren't more important than truth.

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by freeschools

You are really jumping to conclusions here and I think contradicting yourself.

1) If they may homeschool, what is the difference, the governement does accept these Christian-based curricula for homeschooling. How would quality and (drumrolls) Truth be taught to these children. The State has to take them away from these religious parents, right? Isn't this the logical Orwellian conclusion? For their "good"!

Lets not get lost in hyperbole. Nobody is talking about taking kids away from their parents, or even preventing their parents from teaching their children whatever they want. All that is being said is that the school in question does not meet provincial standards for education, and should be closed as a result.

Interesting that rather than attempt to rise to meet provincial standards, the community in question would rather move to another province.

2) The quality is not at stake: the same schools with the same curriculum and staff operate legally in all other provinces.

Which has no bearing on this particular school, where the curriculum and staff were not up to provincial standards.

a) Are you people in those provinces like Ontario terribly dummer than Quebeckers because the State allows really private schools such as these Mennonite ones ?

I don't understand the question.

b) Actually these Mennonites schools tend to outperform the public schools at the same grade (age) level.

I couldn't say about the Mennonites who are attending this particular school. I would guess that there is something wrong with it that justifies it being closed.

I suppose it could be a case of racisim, but I doubt it. I would expect the community to respond differently if it was a clear cut case of governmental abuse.

So much prejudice and intolerance floating around!

True, just not apparently in this case.

EDIT - I just read a few more of your posts. Interesting you brought up prejudice and intolerance. What is wrong with being gay?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Your experience are quite different from mine and statistics I have seen. Though I am very open to seeing anything contrary.

From NEHRI

Academics

• A nationwide study (Ray, 1990), using a random sample of 1,516 families from one organization's membership, found home educated students to be scoring, on average, at or above the 80th percentile in all areas on standardized achievement tests. Note: The national average on standardized achievement tests is the 50th percentile.
• Wartes (1989) found that home school students in Washington consistently score at the 66th percentile on the Stanford Achievement Test, with their strongest scores in science, listening, vocabulary, and word reading.
• Home education students in Montana scored at the 72nd percentile on standardized achievement tests (Ray, 1990).
• The State of Tennessee (1988) reported that the home educated in that state averaged about the 83rd percentile in reading and about the 77th percentile in math on standardized achievement tests.
• The state of Oregon (1988) found that 73% of the home school students who were tested scored above average. Note: The national average is for 50% to score above average.
• The research findings are consistent that the home educated do equal to or better than conventional school students on achievement tests.

Social and Emotional Adjustment

• Dr. Johnson (1991) concluded that home educators carefully address the socialization needs of their children in every area studied (i.e., personal identity, personal destiny, values and moral development, autonomy, relationships, sexuality, and social skills).
• Studying actual observed behavior, Dr. Shyers (1992) found the home educated had significantly lower problem behavior scores than do their conventional school agemates. And the home educated have positive self-concepts.
• Dr. Taylor (1986) found that the home educated have significantly higher self concepts than those in public schools.
• The home schooled are well adjusted socially and emotionally like their private school comparison group. The home educated, however, are less peer dependent than the private school students (Delahooke, 1986).
• Dr. Montgomery (1989) found that home schooled students are just as involved in out-of-school and extracurricular activities that predict leadership in adulthood as are those in the comparison private school (that was comprised of students more involved than those in public schools).

I'm not going to get any further into it. If you don't believe me then it's just something I'll have to live with.

I've got nothing against home education, I've got plenty against home education when the educators are themselves uneducated and hell bent on indoctrinating their kids with a bunch of superstitious nonsense and unable to educate them properly.

For all I know there are hundreds or thousands of kids out there in Calgary getting a brilliant education from Mom at the kitchen table. The ones I met weren't.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the issue, in fact it sounds like it has everything to do with the issue. Clearly the topic of evolution is part of the Canadian school curriculum, which these people are ignoring. It's just an example how they are not teaching to the standards that we as a country have set as an adequate level of education.

BS. Canadian school curriculum? Such a thing doesn't exist.

Each province has their own.

I won't comment on the rest of your post. In one word....ignorant.

You have no idea what their curriculum is like...THAT is obvious.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

BS. Canadian school curriculum? Such a thing doesn't exist.

Each province has their own.

I won't comment on the rest of your post. In one word....ignorant.

You have no idea what their curriculum is like...THAT is obvious.

Yes and no. The federal government has given the responsibility of delivery of education to the provinces. However, the provinces are still expected to meet some basic guidelines. However, as you said, as an actual curriculum document of what to deliver, I dont think such a thing exists. Instead, I think within the Act that gives the powers to the provinces to deliver education, there are some guidelines and principles that are to be adhered to.

This is no different than health care. Here again, the feds have given the responsibility of health care to the provinces. However, if you dont operate within certain guidelines, your portion of federal funding will be lost.

[Azure]

One last point.

This whole thread...many of the responses, etc, etc....are forcing me to think that Quebec shut down the school because they didn't 'like' certain 'religious' aspects that the Mennonites were teaching. When I first read the article, which does leave a lot to the imagination, I figured that many of the students were not being taught the proper schooling skills(reading, math, writing - extend on to the later years as it gets more complex).

But I talked to a friend in town today who is involved with the local Mennonites are their private school. Apparently these Mennonites in Ontario use the 'exact' same curriculum. And 'none' of their students have problems with 'any' course...'any' test....in fact many of them, like I said before have placed VERY high, top 5% at times....in the provincial tests.

But...reading this thread....I guess that doesn't matter. If 'evolution' isn't taught....I mean the 'theory of evolution'... ....then the government has the right to shut down the school.

Strange thing is...just about every other province allows private schools, including mothers who want to home-school their children to use a 'Christian' based curriculum. Never has it been an issue, especially when many home-schooling programs are considered very equal to what is taught in high school.

Now...does that mean Rouge doesn't have a point? Absolutely not. I completely agree that certain mothers have no idea 'what' or 'how' their kids should be taught, and 'some' children that have been home-schooled WILL struggle to learn many basic things.

There is a difference here though. As I understand it...these Mennonite children are being sent to a private school...and their church/leaders will have chosen individuals they fell can teach the children. I'm sure even these 'ignorant', 'brainwashed' Mennonites(I say it not in jest, but in the spirit of this thread)...have some sort of idea what kind of people it takes to teach children.

Yet...if they don't teach evolution...the 'state' has the right to shut the school down. Personally...I can't see how giving the 'state' such power....is any different from giving parents the power to indoctrinate their kids with any kind of garbage they choose.

If parents decide that they want to teach their children through a Christian based curriculum...why should the government worry...as long as those children meet the educational requirements THEY have set out? Nothing in the article...or any article for that matter has said ANYTHING about the kids not being educated properly.

In fact, it seems like CBC threw in the 'evolution' part because they wanted to help 'justify' what Quebec did.

No matter which way you spin it...as long as these children do well on the tests....Quebec has NO right to shut down the school.

Considering how many people on here are scared of the non-seperation of church and state, it is actually hilarious how much power you would give to the government. I guess if one can't control you(religion)...the other choice is better.

No middle ground to be found. And like IFF always says...the answer usually lies somewhere in the middle.

/rant off

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by freeschools

I think you misunderstood me: the knowledge of the theory of evolution is necessary for very FEW careers. Unless, you are a paleontologist, a prehistorian, a biologist let's say. For most people it is of no use, I therefore see no reason the governement should impose this theory.

Because this is really not very important to function as a useful citizen, so why do you want to violate the conscience or beliefs of these Mennonites. Violence, limitation of any freedom or imposition should be justified by greater good. Sorry, I cannot see it here (except Darwinist dogmatism).

I think you are misunderstanding me. I am not putting the complete value of education into the evolution basket. But I see a fundamental problem with a school not teaching evolution, and replacing it with creationism/ID. It leads me to believe there may be other things lacking in the curriculum. For example if a school was teaching that the earth was flat, surely you would think there are other problems in the education the students are receiving. Now I know you aren't going to like this, and chances are other people won't either, but those examples are in perfect parallel. Teaching creationism is the intellectual equivalent of teaching that the world is flat.

I am not closed to the idea that the children at this school are recieving a fine education (outside of creationism). But of the surface, and in my eyes it's not off to a good start.

Sorry, only answering the believer in "qualification" and "State certification".

Well, it does: I'm not certificied by the super-Sate of Quebec with 450 hours of psychopedagogics, etc. and I still teach!

I LIVE in the village, I know them. THE GOVERNMENT DID NOT CLOSE THE SCHOOL FOR REASONS of not achieving a certain STANDARD, but because they don't follow the Holy State Curriculum and they do not employ an Secular teacher, NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LEVEL OF THE COURSES OFFERED OR THE TEACHER ! Just administrative reasons to guarantee the State of Quebec's Monopoly on all curricula taught (basically make sure all children will be leftists, progay, etc.).

I thought this was mentioned several times.

Again I don't see how it does, you teach your kids at home, not at the school in question, correct? There are inherent differences between home schooling your children and having them attend a faux public school. The one lends itself to having credibility, but doesn't have such a thing (qualification and certification) and has no accountability.

"Basically make sure all children will be leftists, progay, etc."

These are not good colours you just showed with that comment. You are hardly lending yourself much credibility.

Regarding your other posts, you see to be suggesting that public school is a bad thing, and home schooling is superior. Well that may work in a small community like your colony, but it will have little chance of working in a large scale city.

That there are holes in the theory (the odds of the macromutations happening within the timeframe known are just too incredibly low) and that even, according to Karl Popper's criteria, it is an unscientific one (since it unfalsifiable). Note that personally, I don't mind the theory as a general framework but really it is still full of holes and I don't see why it should be imposed.

If you feel the theory of evolution is not worth considering, I suggest you do more research on the subject. And considering your alternative is creationism, I highly recommend that you look at evolution more closely.

I've debated creationism/ID several times on the forum before. So I don't really wish to discuss it again. I always get the same tired old arguments and the same terrible logic from that camp. But if you wish to go down that road I'm game.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Azure

BS. Canadian school curriculum? Such a thing doesn't exist.

Each province has their own.

I won't comment on the rest of your post. In one word....ignorant.

You have no idea what their curriculum is like...THAT is obvious.

When I said Canadian curriculum I was referring to the collective curriculum that Canada has. Please, a curriculum that teaches creationism and you're calling me ignorant? People can teach their children their religious creationism at church, not school.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Burninator

When I said Canadian curriculum I was referring to the collective curriculum that Canada has. Please, a curriculum that teaches creationism and you're calling me ignorant? People can teach their children their religious creationism at church, not school.

I agree with that...I don't think creationism has any place in PUBLIC schools.

I'm curious though...how many of you/us were taught evolution in primary or secondary school. I know we never ventured to that depth where I went to school. I knew what evolution was of course. We learned about adaptation, Darwin and his studies etc..but it wasn't until University biology that evolution was a subject of learning.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I've debated creationism/ID several times on the forum before. So I don't really wish to discuss it again. I always get the same tired old arguments and the same terrible logic from that camp. But if you wish to go down that road I'm game.

Just start a new thread to do it in please. Maybe we'll see something new?

[Burninator]

/\ That's fine with me, expect I said that, not freeschools.