Mennonites leaving Quebec after government closes school

[Azure]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/stor...l.html?ref=rss

More than a dozen Mennonite families are leaving Quebec this week after the province deemed their community school illegal and ordered it to shut down.

The Mennonites, who live in Roxton Falls in the Eastern Townships, said they will relocate to one of seven provinces that will let them run their own schools.

"We hoped to grow old here," a tearful Ron Goosen, one of the Mennonites, told CBC News on Thursday. "We have our burial plots and we hoped to be buried here, but it doesn't look that way."

The Quebec government says the school, which teaches 11 children between the ages of six and 13, is illegal because it does not have a permit, its teachers are not licensed and it doesn't follow a standard curriculum.

The school offers religious-based courses that are rooted in the Bible and reject the theory of evolution.

The government has threatened to take legal action if the school isn't closed.

It is my understanding that the cirriculum they use is of the home-schooling sorts....which to my knowledge, does not require a 'registered' teacher, OR school.

So, WTF? Someone want to explain this to me?

[Flashpoint]

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them. Choosing to keep your children ignorant is tantamount to a form of child abuse IMO. If you want to teach them in the home, go ahead, it is your right. But don't deprive them of the truth.

[redforever]

The Quebec government says the school, which teaches 11 children between the ages of six and 13, is illegal because it does not have a permit, its teachers are not licensed and it doesn't follow a standard curriculum.

Home schooling still has to follow a government approved curriculum. It can add on religion if it wishes, but it must conform to certain standards.

And I believe teachers must have teaching certificates. And I am quite certain all schools must have a permit that is granted when they meet government approved guidelines.

I have no sympathy for the Mennonites in this case. Failure to comply with certain guidelines ensures that instead of your children being educated in the norms of the country, they are instead being brainwashed in the religion they are exposed to. As far as I am concerned, this is no different than how any cult would operate.

[BlackEleven]

I agree with the sentiments above. Good for Quebec for stepping in to ensure the children get a proper education.

[Hemi-Cuda]

i feel sorry for those kids, i can only imagine the kind of close minded life they'll lead after that kind of brainwashing. i hope whatever province they relocate to does the same thing as Quebec

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them. Choosing to keep your children ignorant is tantamount to a form of child abuse IMO. If you want to teach them in the home, go ahead, it is your right. But don't deprive them of the truth.

How elitist of you. Oh, and fascist too. Bravo.

Nevermind that these people have had this closed culture and community for hundreds of years. Their 'ignorant' and 'brainwashed' ways are so dangerous.

Makes me sick.

I wasn't replying SOLELY to you btw.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How elitist of you. Oh, and fascist too. Bravo.

Nevermind that these people have had this closed culture and community for hundreds of years. Their 'ignorant' and 'brainwashed' ways are so dangerous.

Makes me sick.

I wasn't replying SOLELY to you btw.

Don't worry, I was thinking the same thing when I read the comments.

You need a certified teacher to teach a home-school course? I don't think so.

http://www.flora.org/homeschool-ca/pq/faq.html

Do I need to be a certified teacher to educate my child at home in Quebec? No. There is no such requirement in the Education Act.

Funny though...that everyone focuses on the the 'what they teach their kids'...blah, blah, blah...instead of actually looking at it from an unbiased viewpoint.

Ignorant? Maybe. That is YOUR opinion. Does everyone have to believe the same thing YOU believe? No. Unless these people were using a program that would NOT meet any sort of educational requirements(the article doesn't point that out)...Quebec has no right to close their school.

Here where I live there is a private Mennonite school. They have no certified teachers...instead, within their church they pick certain individuals...to oversee the HOME-schooling program. According to Alberta Education, THAT program that they use is more than valid enough to obtain a diploma if they graduate grade 12. In fact, many of their students placed in the top 5% in just about ALL subjects based on government tests.

These are the exact same people....and I'm going to ask a few questions next time I see on the Mennonite's in town....I'm sure they all use the same curriculum.

[urban1]

This isnt about Quebec being worried about the wellbeing of the kids.

This is about them being worried about people who are different than themselves.

As an allophone who lived in Quebec for montreal for many years, I can tell you that quebecois are some of the most racist people youll ever run into. This reeks of nothing other than franco quebecois wanting the Mennos to either conform of get the fock out of the province.

[Drunk Skunk]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

How elitist of you. Oh, and fascist too. Bravo.

Nevermind that these people have had this closed culture and community for hundreds of years. Their 'ignorant' and 'brainwashed' ways are so dangerous.

Makes me sick.

I wasn't replying SOLELY to you btw.

I agree completely.

I went to a private, religious school until I graduated. Does that make me closed minded and abused?

[freeschools]

The CBC and the Radio-Canada articles are really not the best ones (you sense they believe Government knows best, I had to deal with the journalist from Radio-Canada who wrote the dispatch, so I really have first hand experience. She for instance asks the Mayor: are you supporting illegality, he answered for justice, are you supporting injustice. She never aired that part of course.)

This article is more objective and better reseach although the spokesman really misrepresents homescholling requirements, see below.

http://www.canada.com/montrealgazett...5-38b1106bddfc

Originally Posted by redforever

Home schooling still has to follow a government approved curriculum. It can add on religion if it wishes, but it must conform to certain standards.

Very vague. Section 15 (4) of the Education Act excuses the following students from attending public schools: "A student who is provided at home, instruction and a learning experience, which, according to an evaluation made by or for the school board, are equivalent to what is provided at school."

And I believe teachers must have teaching certificates.

Ah, a religious belief of yours ?

Do you know how the same schools are perfectly legal in Alberta, Saskatchewan, Ontario, New Brunswick, Manitoba, Nova Scotia and British Columbia...

Do you know how often the "certification" issue is handled? Just certify or grant equivalent status to the teachers designated by the church.

Now, I personally homeschool my 4 children. The younger ones are taught by a substitute teacher ("your godlike super-hero", image 450 hours of psychopedagogics), I really don't think she is any better teacher than the girl that was teaching at that Mennonite school (I know them both). But of course, if you believe in piece of papers and boring courses...

And I am quite certain all schools must have a permit that is granted when they meet government approved guidelines.

Well, yes. And the same schools with the same curriculum and same teachers are approved everywhere else in Canada.


[qoute]Failure to comply with certain guidelines ensures that instead of your children being educated in the norms of the country, they are instead being brainwashed in the religion they are exposed to. [/quote]

Pfff. They are just as much brainwashed by the State. This is why Education is a virtual monopoly in Quebec: all schools much teach the Quebec curriculum, so called "private schools" must teach the official curriculum and may only add to it.

As far as I am concerned, this is no different than how any cult would operate.

Why do you speak of the State in this way? Because of its monopoly? I know the State is necessarily good, right?

Understand that the dispute has nothing to do with the ACADEMIC QUALITY such as knowing how to read, write, do maths, sciences, leran French, etc. Only who decides HOW this is taught reading which kind of books, portraying what kind of values, depicting in what way typical lifestyles (is gay mariage a good thing, etc.).

See also: http://montreal.ctv.ca/cfcf/video_popup?news_id=14515 (TV)

(Get educated and don't immediately come with your prejudices: the Mennonites operate like a cult without first informing yourself)

[freeschools]

Originally Posted by fotze

Oh no what is Quebec going to do, the mennoknights are leaving.

Simply a symptom of Quebec's profound intolerance. Can't even deal with the peaceful Mennonites !

[freeschools]

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for them. Choosing to keep your children ignorant is tantamount to a form of child abuse IMO. If you want to teach them in the home, go ahead, it is your right. But don't deprive them of the truth.

You are really jumping to conclusions here and I think contradicting yourself.

1) If they may homeschool, what is the difference, the governement does accept these Christian-based curricula for homeschooling. How would quality and (drumrolls) Truth be taught to these children. The State has to take them away from these religious parents, right? Isn't this the logical Orwellian conclusion? For their "good"!


2) The quality is not at stake: the same schools with the same curriculum and staff operate legally in all other provinces.
a) Are you people in those provinces like Ontario terribly dummer than Quebeckers because the State allows really private schools such as these Mennonite ones ?

b) Actually these Mennonites schools tend to outperform the public schools at the same grade (age) level.

So much prejudice and intolerance floating around!

http://pouruneecolelibre.blogspot.com/

[RougeUnderoos]

First off, I don't agree with how these people are being treated, but...

Originally Posted by freeschools

But of course, if you believe in piece of papers and boring courses...

I believe in qualifications and training.

And I've had some amount of experience with "home schooled" children. Children with parents that believed they were plenty qualified to homeschool their own kids but it turned out they were not qualified at all. Whoops! Some of these kids knew their bible pretty good, but I'll be damned if they could actually read it.

Have you ever taught a perfectly intelligent 10 year-old how to read the word "cat"? It sucks.

[Burninator]

The school offers religious-based courses that are rooted in the Bible and reject the theory of evolution.

Well it doesn't sound like they are missing much in the way of education if they are shutting this school down.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Well it doesn't sound like they are missing much in the way of education if they are shutting this school down.

And I guess that gives Quebec ample reason to do so, right?

I don't believe you think that way Burn....but come on...why does it matter if they don't teach evolution? You can't dictate your belief upon every single child.

Sadly...the cbc article brought in the issue of teaching evolution...even though it has ##### all to do with the topic at hand. Hopefully Quebec isn't shutting down the school for such a reason. Yet, CBC still has to include it.

[freeschools]

Originally Posted by Burninator

Well it doesn't sound like they are missing much in the way of education if they are shutting this school down.

I see, not believing in the *theory* of evolution means not getting an education or not being able to become a perfectly well-trained mechanic, farmer or computer technician.

[Drunk Skunk]

I can say I'm honestly surprised at how religion is looked at in this thread. It's disappointing.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Drunk Skunk

I can say I'm honestly surprised at how religion is looked at in this thread. It's disappointing.

Pretty much every aspect of the phenomenon gets a rough ride in here. It can get pretty harsh. It's nothing personal of course, at least from me.

[freeschools]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

First off, I don't agree with how these people are being treated, but...



I believe in qualifications and training.

These Mennonites don't believe in going to the colleges and universities that "qualify", for several reasons but basically they ressent the godless curriculum, the pedagogic being taught and plainly the unnecessarily long studies to simply become a primary school teacher: it is simply getting ridiculous (450 hours of pyschopedagogics). Are children getting better, learning better today than 50 years ago for it? Pieces of paper do not make teachers who care and lead by example.

And I've had some amount of experience with "home schooled" children. Children with parents that believed they were plenty qualified to homeschool their own kids but it turned out they were not qualified at all.

Possible, I know quite a few public school children who are pretty ignorant.

Il est comment ton français, mon petit coco?

Whoops! Some of these kids knew their bible pretty good, but I'll be damned if they could actually read it.

Trop gros, pas crédible.

You exaggerate, this makes you less credible.

I have never seen a Christian child who knows his Bible and cannot read it. Unless you mean by "read" how to critique it, deconstructively take it apart, so as to be a good faithful atheist?

Have you ever taught a perfectly intelligent 10 year-old how to read the word "cat"? It sucks.

All my children are homeschooled, read by 6 and all are taught to read in at least 3 languages. My big one takes 5 languages (French, English, German, Spanish and Latin) and speaks Low-German with his mother and the other ones are following in his footsteps. He got excellent grades independently corrected by State officials in France during last year (120 assignments) and he will pass his brevet (end of middle school certificate) this year at a private French school in Montreal (2 day session) and I believe he will do very well (we have already gone through some mock exams, yes, we can even read the answers to the mock exams although we are not "certified" by the god State).

http://pouruneecolelibre.blogspot.com/

(enough fighting simplistic prejudices for today)


Ah, have you read The Case Against Adolescence: Rediscovering the Adult in Every Teen by Dr Robert Epstein ?

(We are getting away from government enforced curricula here but some people need to see their dogma challenged here).

Espstein believes high school is a result of the Industrial Revolution (factories to massively educate children) and that many of the problems associated to teenagers are actually caused by the way they are educated (by the laws and infrastructures that force them to be educated a certain way: in particular long schooling, all the time, in high schools).

High schools may actually infantilize teenagers. Governments should step BACK and not rule more and more in this domain!

A quote:
"Our educational institutions today are cursed by at least four fatal legacies of the Industrial Revolution—ideas that may have been helpful a century ago but have no place in today’s world.
In today’s fast-paced world, education needs to be spread out over a lifetime, and the main thing we need to teach our young people is to love the process of learning.
First, although cars can be assembled on demand, it’s absurd to teach people when they’re not ready to learn. As the brilliant German educator Kurt Hahn (the founder of Outward Bound) said, teaching people who are aren’t ready is like “pouring and pouring into a jug and never looking to see whether the lid is off.”

Second, although mass education was exciting in the era that invented mass production, it does a great disservice to the vast majority of students. People have radically different learning styles and abilities, and effective learning—learning that benefits all students—is necessarily individualized and self-paced. This is the elephant in the classroom from which no teacher can hide.

Third, although it’s efficient to cram all apparently essential knowledge into the first two decades of life, the main thing we teach most students with this approach is to hate school. In today’s fast-paced world, education needs to be spread out over a lifetime, and the main thing we need to teach our young people is to love the process of learning.

Finally, whereas that first compulsory-education law in Massachusetts was competency-based, the system that grew in its wake requires all young people to attend school, no matter what they know. Even worse, the system provides no incentives for students to master material quickly, and few or no meaningful options for young people who do leave school.
"

More freedom not ever more government involvement , not more laws, not more programs to be scrupulously followed for all otherwise "standards are not being met".

(I hope my time is not wasted here)

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I guess that gives Quebec ample reason to do so, right?

I don't believe you think that way Burn....but come on...why does it matter if they don't teach evolution? You can't dictate your belief upon every single child.

Sadly...the cbc article brought in the issue of teaching evolution...even though it has ##### all to do with the topic at hand. Hopefully Quebec isn't shutting down the school for such a reason. Yet, CBC still has to include it.

I wouldn't say it has nothing to do with the issue, in fact it sounds like it has everything to do with the issue. Clearly the topic of evolution is part of the Canadian school curriculum, which these people are ignoring. It's just an example how they are not teaching to the standards that we as a country have set as an adequate level of education.