Blu-ray Vs. HD DVD not as close as expected... (Official- HD-DVD Dead)

[ken0042]

Two points Madman:

- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.

- Also not sure what you mean by "can't burn backups." I'm positive there are blu-ray DVD burners out there now.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Madman:
- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.

I'll add to that you should have a 1080p HD TV, which one 5 years old would not be. An HD-DVD or Blu-Ray will look twice as good as a DVD on a 1080p TV. Also, with an increase in TV size, you must have better resolution; I cant imaging anything but 1080p (or maybe 720p) on a 65" Plasma - DVD would look horrible.

But, a Blu-Ray looks somewhat better than a DVD even on my Panasonic 42' EDTV plasma. I've done A/B tests to confirm that.

[Flamescupbound!]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

I mean come on - Blazing Saddles recently came out on Blu-ray... did a 1974 western/comedy really need HD, and is the transfer some how amazingly better than the DVD version or is it just a cash cow, like all HD DVD/Blu-ray sans a select few will be, same as 80% of DVD releases today.

I think this is the war of suckers.

*edit*
As a FYI you can get any movie in DVD...

I think you're right about the older movies. The 1st few blu-rays I watched were older movies and I was dissapointed in the quality. This was till I watched a newer movie, Training Day, and was absolutely blown away.

Basically I will only be buying new releases on blu-ray from now on.

[photon]

I don't know, I've seen some movies in both HD and regular DVD and I think there's a pretty huge difference.

Proper viewing distance is important though, on a big screen I can see the compression artifacts from the DVD if I sit close.

Basically HD lets you have the same movie on a bigger screen and look good.

[MaDMaN_26]

Originally Posted by ken0042

Two points Madman:

- Have you seen a High Def format movie on your TV yet? If not; you might want to reserve judgement on wether its better or not.

- Also not sure what you mean by "can't burn backups." I'm positive there are blu-ray DVD burners out there now.

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash

I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 1080 lines of resolution and 480 lines of resolution on a regular dvd.

Can you see the difference between 240 lines of resolution on VHS and the 480 on the dvd?

[greerb]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

No I have not, being 5 years old it has enough lines of resolution for my DVD set up but does not do 1080p etc... Honestly I don't remember what my TV can do - it may be 1080i or maybe just 720... but I think DVD max's out at 500-600 ish...

Still if I watch a decent transfer the picture is really good, (same goes for some HD-TV shows or movies I get via Bell Satellite) I guess what I'm saying is I'm not sure the world needs these next gen HD discs yet... and ya if you can do a direct comparison (side by side or switching sources) I'm sure you will notice the HD is cleaner, but is it really needed? again I think 90% of the people do not have the tools to watch DVD's at full potential, and the studios constantly put out DVD's that do not live up to the potential of DVD (it's like they transfer from VHS sometimes)... I think the technology is being pushed because of piracy issues... There may be Blu-ray or HD-DVD burners but I think they are very expensive still and like DVD I'm sure they can't do the same capacity as the originals, e.g. with DVD you most like have to compress it in order to fit it on 4 gigs - as the original copy can be 8.5. - I can buy everything I need to Burn DVD's for around a hundred bucks...

The studios have yet to prove to me that they use every ounce of DVD space to make sure the quality is as good as it can be on DVD releases... on a few yes, but mostly its a cash grab, and I for one will not be spending thousands upgrading everyhting I own for a minute difference in quality so they can continue to under use the technologies potential and just grab my cash

Actually DVD maxes out at 480i/p

HD-DVD video compared to DVD is nignt and day. If one has the TV for it it is a no brainer. Kinda like tose who have HDTV and still do not subsribe to HDTV with thier provider.

[Human Torch]

Here's an hd vs sd comparison shot thread. The pictures are pretty big so it will take a while to load: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=811102

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Kobatuzzied

I find it hard to believe you can't tell the difference between 1080 lines of resolution and 480 lines of resolution on a regular dvd.

Can you see the difference between 240 lines of resolution on VHS and the 480 on the dvd?

The big difference in quality between VHS and DVD relies more on the digital vs analog divide, just like tapes vs CDs. Even a poor DVD transfer looks better than the best VHS picture, however, a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray transfer poorly done is only marginally better than a DVD transfer poorly done. Especially in the case of older films, big money will need to be spent to clean up the film for transfer and process it appropriately into a digital format, and since most studios didn't do it (or at least, properly do it) with DVDs, I doubt very much they will spend the even larger amounts of cash and time it will take to make good HD video. I'd even bet that some transfers will just be upsampled DVD material no different than you could get with a decent DVD player now.

What I'd like to see are some comparisons of, say, shots from Casablanca or The Good, the Bad and the Ugly to see how much difference the two formats exhibit. All the shots I've ever seen are from recent movies, where the difference is noticeable, sure, but these are always best-case scenarios from pristine source material. I would suspect that for some older movies, the clarity of the format would only expose just how bad the original source looks, as even some DVDs already have done in the past.

In short, while the technical arguments are compelling, in real-world usage I think most people just don't see the benefit, because the benefits only accrue if you meet the following conditions:

- the source material has been properly digitized and cleaned up
- your television is both large-screen and 1080p capable
- the movie is visuals-dependent (do people watch comedies or classic films for the visuals? I think not)
- you have an viewing environment where you are at the right angle and distance from the television

I just don't see either format being compelling enough to overcome point #1, never mind the rest. People like me that bought hundreds of DVDs are not going to buy hundreds of HD versions of the same films, unlike when VHS collections were replaced, because the perceived extra quality is not nearly as dramatic as the the analog to digital conversion was (which is why the HD versions heavily promoted are almost always the new films), and thus a big driver of the sales for the players is missing and is going to remain that way for the next few years, if not longer.

[Tyler]

Just bought a blu ray player tonight.

I have both systems now, and was a bit disappointed with the current brd catalogue. Hopefully it gets better

[Cerebral]

Strange move by Paramount as Blu Ray is easily winning the format war so far based on all reports. Then again, it makes a little more sense when you see the money they received for going exclusive with HD DVD.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

MS and Toshiba are basically willing to do everything necessary to keep HD-DVD afloat as far as I can tell. It may not "win", but I doubt it will disappear a la Beta, either.

I wrote that on July 26. Today is further evidence of this.

[Draug]

Yup . . . I cant really see it being in Paramount's best interest to commit to one technology. As a studio, wouldnt you want your movies distributed to the largest potential audience? Clearly, that is Blu-Ray at this point. Perhaps, you continue distributing on both platforms, but to commit to one seems crazy to me.

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling

[Cerebral]

Originally Posted by Draug

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling

The number floating around is $150M but it sounds like there is a lot more to the deal than just cash. It would obviously have to be a huge deal as Blu Ray is undoubtedly selling better and has the larger market right now as well.

[TurnedTheCorner]

Originally Posted by Draug

Yup . . . I cant really see it being in Paramount's best interest to commit to one technology. As a studio, wouldnt you want your movies distributed to the largest potential audience? Clearly, that is Blu-Ray at this point. Perhaps, you continue distributing on both platforms, but to commit to one seems crazy to me.

I sure would like to know what the deal between Toshiba/MS and Paramount consisted of. It would be mind boggling

Clearly, that is DVD at this point you mean. Moves like this seem intended to ensure no single format (HD movie channels, HD PPV or On Demand, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HD streaming) becomes an 800 lb. gorilla. To what end? I have no idea. I'm sure whatver the grand scheme is, it has been plotted with the best interests of consumers in mind though.

[LockedOut]

If HD and Blu-Ray players ever get to the price point that DVD players are at right now, I'm pretty sure that both formats will stick around and people will in the end eventually just buy both players or combo player as long as both formats are healthy at that time. It'll probably take awhile though before you can buy a cheap player for $40 at the Superstore or WalMart like you can a regular DVD player.

[MissKat]

Originally Posted by LockedOut

If HD and Blu-Ray players ever get to the price point that DVD players are at right now, I'm pretty sure that both formats will stick around and people will in the end eventually just buy both players or combo player as long as both formats are healthy at that time. It'll probably take awhile though before you can buy a cheap player for $40 at the Superstore or WalMart like you can a regular DVD player.

Its taken DVD 8 or 9 years to get to the $40 price range. You will not see HDDVD or BR players drop to that price for a long long time. By that time, there will be something else out.

Also, only one will survive - not both. Why? Because todays society just wont accept having 2 formats. The average Joe dont care for it, and the market just wont allow it. Never in the past has two formats existed simultaneously (selling well that is!)

[ernie]

Sure there is a difference between regular DVD and HD. Absolutely. Plain as day.

But that difference does not make a movie better IMO. A good movie is a good movie and bad movie is a bad movie. No amount of picture clarity changes that. WHich is why until the prices for the HD format drop and people actually buy and USE HD TV's the regular DVD format will completly dominate (that's the key I know many many people who have a nice HD TV but don't have HD programming).

ON the paramount decision....It doesn't surpirse me at all that some companies will lean more to HD-DVD for a couple of reasons. 1) the attach rate is still higher for HD-DVD and 2) they do not need to change current manufacturing techniques unlike Blu-Ray whihc will require plants to completely switch over to new equipment. That will become a huge factor going forward for Blu-Ray if adoption of high def players continues to be slow.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by ernie

But that difference does not make a movie better IMO. A good movie is a good movie and bad movie is a bad movie. No amount of picture clarity changes that.

Yes, to a certain extent. However a good movie will draw you in, and with a good surround system you will be a part of the movie. Now take that same good movie, throw in some macroblocking, and all of a sudden you take yourself out of the movie for a sec while you become slightly annoyed at the compression artifacts on the screen.

Add to that the fact that a mediocre movie will be more enjoyable in HD than SD. As an example, I don't like baseball. But when I got my HDTV I sat and watched an entire game; simply because it was in HD.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by TurnedTheCorner

Clearly, that is DVD at this point you mean. Moves like this seem intended to ensure no single format (HD movie channels, HD PPV or On Demand, Blu-ray, HD-DVD, HD streaming) becomes an 800 lb. gorilla. To what end? I have no idea. I'm sure whatver the grand scheme is, it has been plotted with the best interests of consumers in mind though.

Licensing.

If you use blu-ray, you pay licensing to one group, go HD-DVD you pay it to another.

VHS - JVC got the money
Beta - Sony
CD - Phillips
DVD - Toshiba

And now they are fighting over who will get the majority of fees from the next great format.