The Politics Of God

[Cowperson]

Interesting, albeit it lengthy, essay in the New York Times on "The Politics Of God."

If you have the time . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/ma...eligion-t.html

Cowperson

[Flashpoint]

A great article. I got a little bogged down in the first 8 pages running through the history of separation of church and state, but I found this very very interesting:

Similarly, we must somehow find a way to accept the fact that, given the immigration policies Western nations have pursued over the last half-century, they now are hosts to millions of Muslims who have great difficulty fitting into societies that do not recognize any political claims based on their divine revelation. Like Orthodox Jewish law, the Muslim Shariah is meant to cover the whole of life, not some arbitrarily demarcated private sphere, and its legal system has few theological resources for establishing the independence of politics from detailed divine commands. It is an unfortunate situation, but we have made our bed, Muslims and non-Muslims alike. Accommodation and mutual respect can help, as can clear rules governing areas of tension, like the status of women, parents’ rights over their children, speech offensive to religious sensibilities, speech inciting violence, standards of dress in public institutions and the like. Western countries have adopted different strategies for coping, some forbidding religious symbols like the head scarf in schools, others permitting them. But we need to recognize that coping is the order of the day, not defending high principle, and that our expectations should remain low. So long as a sizable population believes in the truth of a comprehensive political theology, its full reconciliation with modern liberal democracy cannot be expected.

It is an issue you can see, not just when it comes to immigration. I recall a college course where we were discussing indigenous cultures and how they are treated (and mistreated) within the states in which they live. Typically the sentiment went along the lines of "live and let live" would work best - i.e. Self government for native cultures.

The question was posed "what do we do when the values of those cultures do not line up with our own?" For example, a lot of cultures do not have equal rights for women. If we respect their culture, do we also respect each of their beliefs, even when they contradict our own?

Or do we impress upon them our own values - even though that assumes a guise of cultural superiority on our part.

And more importantly, how do we deal with entire countries on the world stage that operate under such fundamentally different paradigms?

[arsenal]

I haven't had time to read the article, as it is freaking huge.

Originally Posted by Flashpoint

The question was posed "what do we do when the values of those cultures do not line up with our own?" For example, a lot of cultures do not have equal rights for women. If we respect their culture, do we also respect each of their beliefs, even when they contradict our own?

Or do we impress upon them our own values - even though that assumes a guise of cultural superiority on our part.

And more importantly, how do we deal with entire countries on the world stage that operate under such fundamentally different paradigms?

I don't think that we need to impress our values upon people who come to our countries from different cultures. And like wise, people from other cultures moving to our country should respect the fact that their new country may not see everything as they do, in reguards to laws etc.

There needs to be a mutual respect, from both sides, that I don't think a lot of people are getting. If you leave your home country, to live in a country that has vastly different religous, political views than your home country. You have to be willing to give up some of what you grew up with. But at the same time, the country you are moving too, must be willing to accept some of your views as well. That's the only way that we can grow as a society. I think for the most part, most countries do try to do this, but still keep the moral fibre at which from which they developed.

Now I have not been to a country that has largely different views from Canada's, so I can't really comment on that. But it would be interesting to see how well other countries accept the beliefs and values of a person who grew up in Canada.
ie: Canadian or US person living in the Sudan or the UAE. Are these people expected to fully conform to their beleif system?

[Flashpoint]

Originally Posted by arsenal

I haven't had time to read the article, as it is freaking huge.

I would suggest you hit the last two pages. They are the most current.

I don't think that we need to impress our values upon people who come to our countries from different cultures. And like wise, people from other cultures moving to our country should respect the fact that their new country may not see everything as they do, in reguards to laws etc.

But what about where they come into conflict? What you propose is a moderate solution that in theory keeps both sides happy. The reality is often that some individuals believe strongly in things that are completely incompatible in their new society - i.e. A Canadian in Saudi Arabia would probably think it is ok for women to drive cars, and ride in the front seat. A individual from a patriarchal society might feel equally strongly in Canada that his wife ought not to vote.

How do we rectify these differences? Is it a simple case of "follow the law of the land" - when in Rome, do as the Romans do? Or should we be fighting for values we hold as "just" regardless of where we are in the world.

Which is the point the author makes on page 8. We are currently able to "cope", but without any real solutions. And that we aren't expecting to have any solutions anytime soon given how entrenched our differences seem to be.

Which is sad.

[arsenal]

I am not saying that coming to a new country that you must abandon your entire belief system. But you have to open to the fact that your new country of residence may not understand your belief system. Just like you yourself will probably not understand theirs. There has to be compromise. If you feel strongly enough in your beleifs, that you are not willing to at least try something new, then you have to ask yourself what made you want to come to said country to begin with?

In both of your examples, it should come down to the law of the land. If you are going to get thrown in jail for letting a woman drive, or site in the front seat in Saudi Arabia, are you really going to chance it? As for the patriachal person coming to canada, thinking that his wife should not be aloud to vote. Well in Canada, woman are aloud to vote. If he is unwilling to accept that, that is a personal family matter. If he attempts to stop other woman from voting, then that is a matter for the city/province/state to handle.

The only way things are going to change is if people are willing to accept change, or at least a different point of view. Right now, people are holding onto their beleifs, and not willing to give and take, thinking that they are right and everyone else is wrong.

As globalization, internet and media continue growing and reaching more and more people, there are going to instances of people not seeing eye to eye, or thinking that people are out right crazy for believing in certian things. What we need to do as a global society is try to educate each other, in a way that is non threatening to one another. (Wow.. that sounded kind of emo...)

If you try to change people's ways through force, and threats, then all you are doing is putting up walls, and burning any bridges that may have formed.