Cold, hard facts take the heat out of some hot claims

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Thanks for posting the graphs Nehkara. I took a class in World Climate in undergrad a few years back where we looked at similar historical numbers, and discussed the current warming trend - in the greater scheme of things it hardly even categorizes as a "blip" so far.

No question that the continued destruction of forests, burning of fossil fuels, pollution, ect. are all detrimental to the environment though.

Detrimental, absolutely. The cause for widespread panic and predictions of coming doomsday? Not so much.

I absolutely agree that humans have done horrible things to the environment in some parts of the world but overall I don't think we are significantly altering the climate. I don't think we are in danger of an outright catastrophe of our own making.

Sure, terrible things might happen on a global scale but I would definitely say that they would have happened with or without us.

We need to take a reasoned approach to solving our problems. Work on clean fuels, new sources of energy, ways to preserve the rainforest while still allowing the people living there to make ends meet. The current approach of "Scare the out of them until they do what we want" really bothers me. Inform people! Don't just terrify them until they acquiesce.

[Nehkara]

Originally Posted by MaDMaN_26

Very recently "the worlds leading climate scientist agreed" that global warming was a direct result of Humans burning fossil fuels...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/...warming02.html

So one guy says hey these NASA numbers are wrong, it was a bit warmer in the 30's - and this report that came out in February is now completely blown away... is that what this thread is arguing?? The worlds scientists all used NASA's number and only their numbers... I don't buy it...

And how much were they paid to say that?

The evidence does NOT back him up.

It is just another aspect of my previous post... they are trying to scare you into doing what they want.

I am a HUGE supporter of alternative fuels and efforts to be environmentally friendly but their approach is all wrong. EDUCATE, INFORM, TEACH, RESEARCH. These problems can and will be fixed and we are not moving towards an oblivion of our own creation.


Edit: They are virtually certain that the "warming" over the last 50 years has been caused by humans, what caused the warming and cooling before that then?



From 1970 or so there has been a general warming trend but it was warmer before... in the 30s and 50s... why did it cool down after that? Did we make it warm those times too?

The best answer is: They have no idea. They don't know why the temperature on the Earth changes because we don't have a good enough understanding yet of how the whole planet operates. They need to do more research. A LOT more.

[oldschoolcalgary]

people act like the Global Warming fears are a recent scientific theory: its not...this has been studied for quite a while and the recent ramping up of the discussion is because they believe we are reaching a point of no return...

The notion of scare tactics, like it not, is the only way people will change their habits. Nothing would be done otherwise.

Heck, people here deny it too, in the face of these 'scare tactics'!?

Alternative fuels are a good thing, global warming or no global warming...consuming less is a good thing (europeans have been doing this for a long time already)...not too sure why people are in an uproar about doing things that seem to be self-evident.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

people act like the Global Warming fears are a recent scientific theory: its not...this has been studied for quite a while and the recent ramping up of the discussion is because they believe we are reaching a point of no return...

The notion of scare tactics, like it not, is the only way people will change their habits. Nothing would be done otherwise.

Heck, people here deny it too, in the face of these 'scare tactics'!?

Alternative fuels are a good thing, global warming or no global warming...consuming less is a good thing (europeans have been doing this for a long time already)...not too sure why people are in an uproar about doing things that seem to be self-evident.

except 30 years ago when fears of global cooling was all the rage...

[REDVAN]

Ok, it's time for my monthly gloabl warming rant (because that is how often we have these threads).

I have university level education in global warming. There is no doubt it is happening. There is lots of doubt what is causing it. Let's stop playing the blame games and start dealing with what is going to happen. Does it matter if the numbers were wrong, because in general we are still warming, and whatever the cause, this can still be a large issue for humanity.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by REDVAN

Ok, it's time for my monthly gloabl warming rant (because that is how often we have these threads).

I have university level education in global warming. There is no doubt it is happening. There is lots of doubt what is causing it. Let's stop playing the blame games and start dealing with what is going to happen. Does it matter if the numbers were wrong, because in general we are still warming, and whatever the cause, this can still be a large issue for humanity.

so what are we going to do? move everyone living with a few miles from the coast inland?

if natural occurence plays the biggest part, there is not a whole lot we can do, and if we find some scientific or technological way to deal with it, than what are the consequences of that...

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Inform people! Don't just terrify them until they acquiesce.

I'm not sure exactly what the difference is. When I propose a project at work and say "this project will cost $X, here is how we plan to go about it and here is the product you will get in the end" I get told that we don't have $X and to go sit on my thumb and rotate.

When I propose a project at work and say "this project will cost $X, here is how we plan to go about it, here is the product you will get in the end, AND HERE ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF NOT DOING THIS PROJECT", I tend to get the money.

To get ANY kind of action out of people you have to discuss the consequences. I think this whole "don't try to scare people" is meant to steal the only motivation that environmentalist have.

For the most part, people are still monkeys and we (myself included) are only motivated by two primary things: fear and greed. If the government doesn't impose a carbon tax, then greed is out. Fear is the only motivator left.

Personally, I'm with REDVAN. Unlike REDVAN, I firmly believe that humans are a strong contributor to global warming. However, I don't have any faith in humanity to do anything about it. So governments should just throw up their hands and stop even TRYING to reduce carbon emissions and start moving people inland.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

From 1970 or so there has been a general warming trend but it was warmer before... in the 30s and 50s... why did it cool down after that? Did we make it warm those times too?

The best answer is: They have no idea. They don't know why the temperature on the Earth changes because we don't have a good enough understanding yet of how the whole planet operates. They need to do more research. A LOT more.

Why don't you show the whole graph when making your point, and not conveniently leave out the last few years. (see below)

So, you are saying that it is not possible that humans are causing unnatural global warming, because we were not the cause of all the warming and cooling trends through history? You think that all the world's scientists have overlooked the fact that there have been natural global warming and cooling trends that human's weren't responsible for? The fact that there were previous warming and cooling trends is not an argument against the belief that human's are causing an unnatural spike to global temperatures.

[badnarik]

Wow, did a blogger just lower the average temperature since 2000 by .15°C?

[Save Us Sutter]

You know it's been like 5 years since I have even heard someone try to say that humans are not (at least) helping to accelerate climate change (or global warming) ot whatever you want to call it.

So I'm sitting here, kinda in shock, and trying to figure out why the majority on this site seem to shrug it off and claim that it's not our fault.

Then it hit me. I am in a province that is getting mind-boggingly rich off raping their land and polluting their air in the hunt for oil.

Duh.

And don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking you guys. It's human nature to stick up for your way of life. But honestly guys... wake up and smell the burning fossil fuels.......

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

You know it's been like 5 years since I have even heard someone try to say that humans are not (at least) helping to accelerate climate change (or global warming) ot whatever you want to call it.

I don't think many people think we have nothing to do with it. How much we have to do with it is in debate.

Just wondering what percentage of global warming do you attribute to human activities???

My issue is that these scientists have no problem saying we humans are the cause of global warming now, but can come up with no reason for the way that the climate has acted in the past. Perhaps when these "models" can replicate what happened in the past without manipulating the data(ala the hockey stick previously mentioned) will they be anything more then the political propoganda they are now.

[transplant99]

Then it hit me. I am in a province that is getting mind-boggingly rich off raping their land and polluting their air in the hunt for oil.

Duh

I guess you have assumed that every one in this thread is living in Alberta huh?

Duh.

But honestly guys... wake up and smell the burning fossil fuels.......

Honestly, wake and smell the possibility that everything said has nothing to do with geography.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

And don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking you guys. It's human nature to stick up for your way of life. But honestly guys... wake up and smell the burning fossil fuels.......

Yup, every single person on this forum goes out and personally kills a tree every day so that they can exploit the land some more. Nice generalization.

And somehow Alberta burns all those resources in its own borders and get rich. Amazing.

Most of those resources are exported to other provinces and other countries, and they are burned there. The problem isn't production, it's consumption. Production simply meets the demands that are there.

If Alberta stopped producing oil and gas tomorrow, somehow magically the world's consumption will decrease?

[Alter Haudegen]

Originally Posted by photon

Yup, every single person on this forum goes out and personally kills a tree every day so that they can exploit the land some more. Nice generalization.

And somehow Alberta burns all those resources in its own borders and get rich. Amazing.

Most of those resources are exported to other provinces and other countries, and they are burned there. The problem isn't production, it's consumption. Production simply meets the demands that are there.

If Alberta stopped producing oil and gas tomorrow, somehow magically the world's consumption will decrease?

No, but because of the extra energy needed to melt the bitumen and separate it from the sand and because of emissions from the upgrading process, production of a barrel of synthetic crude oil from oil sands generates, on average, more than three times more GHG emissions than production of a barrel of conventional oil.

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I don't think many people think we have nothing to do with it. How much we have to do with it is in debate.

Just wondering what percentage of global warming do you attribute to human activities???

I don't know the precentage, nor do I think that humans are the ONLY cause. I just took issue with the people saying that we are not causing any problems at all by pumping pollution into the atmosphere.

Originally Posted by transplant99

I guess you have assumed that every one in this thread is living in Alberta huh?

Obviously I know not everyone here is from Alberta. I was really more of a joke on my part that was obviously taken the wrong way... considering I lost my reputation point because of it!

Originally Posted by photon

Yup, every single person on this forum goes out and personally kills a tree every day so that they can exploit the land some more. Nice generalization.

Is that what I said??? I don't think so. But it's hard to deny the economy of this province is pretty much run by the oil companies. Not exactly a enviormentally friendly group.

Originally Posted by photon

And somehow Alberta burns all those resources in its own borders and get rich. Amazing.

No, they don't burn them all within their own borders. Are you saying that extracting the oil doesn't cause environmental problems???

Originally Posted by photon

Most of those resources are exported to other provinces and other countries, and they are burned there. The problem isn't production, it's consumption. Production simply meets the demands that are there.

If Alberta stopped producing oil and gas tomorrow, somehow magically the world's consumption will decrease?

Other countries mostly. I know in Nova Scotia we don't get out oil from Alberta, we have to import it. But that's a whole different topic altogether.

The problem is consumtion, yes, but to say production is causing no harm is pretty naive.

Look guys, I'm sorry my comments were mistaken as an attack on Albertans. It was 4am and I was just very surprised at what I read in this thread. Like I said, back home, it's kinda taken for granted that humans are playing a large part in what is currently happening to our weather patterns. I made what I thought was a joke and it was obviously taken the wrong way. Such is the danger of message boards. It's hard for others to tell what you mean without the non-verbal clues.

So I guess, in conclusion, all Nova Scotian's are naive, liberal hippies!!

[Azure]

Has one person in this thread said that humans are not contributing to global warming?

Anywhere?

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

makes one wonder whether climate change truly is human activity influenced, or is a typical cycle that we as a species simply haven't been around to fully experience yet.

Originally Posted by Nehkara

My whole point is that while the temperature has generally been going up for 18,000 years it is very likely not because of us. I actually think it is quite arrogant of us to believe we could affect the planet so easily and so drastically.

Originally Posted by Nehkara

The liklihood is that it isn't us at this point, so we will just have to go along for the ride the planet is taking us on.

Originally Posted by worth

Just because temperatures are rising or ice is melting, and there are humans producing CO2 on the planet's surface, it's foolhardy science to come to the conclusion that humans are the cause of the problem.

Originally Posted by Thunderball

As funny as this may sound... I almost think people WISH that climate change was human activity related, so that efforts could be made to stop it.

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Sure, terrible things might happen on a global scale but I would definitely say that they would have happened with or without us.

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

if natural occurence plays the biggest part, there is not a whole lot we can do

That enough for you?

[Azure]

Not really. I said someone who 'denied' that humans played 'any' part in global warming.

I think we would all agree that humans are contributing to global warming, pollution, etc, etc....thing is, we DO NOT know how much of an effect we have had, and will have in the future on the environment.

But its nice of you to pick and choose comments to try and prove your point.

My bad though if you misunderstood....next time I'll capitalize the 'not'...in 'not contributing to global warming'....and it might be easier to understand.

There is a huge difference is saying our effect is minuscule .... and saying we are NOT contributing to global warming...which nobody here in this thread has.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by photon

Most of those resources are exported to other provinces and other countries, and they are burned there. The problem isn't production, it's consumption. Production simply meets the demands that are there.

Attacking supply rather than consumption seems to be the popular modus operundi in the drug war. This should work just as well when it comes to oil...

According to polls, Alberta is the most skeptical province when it comes to global warming. I'm quite sure that when Newfoundland starts reaping the profits of offshore oil, they will be up there too.

I'm a computer programmer. If someone was going around claiming computers were destroying the world, I'd be the first to scoff.

Which puts Mike Baird in a bad position - he doesn't want to offend the base, but neither does he want to peeve the people of Ontario, and especially Quebec which is the least skeptical province.

[Azure]

I agree, DA....it is easier to attack the those that use the fossil fuels simply to satisfy demands.

Thing is...even if that were successful, at the most it will only be a short term fix. Long term....we should be looking at alternative energy sources...rather than attacking the ones we have right now.