Further proof that Universal Health Care does not work?

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by La Flames Fan

Everyone seems to think the American way is so much more advanced, the doctors are high and above the Canadians, well that just isn't true.

Trust me there wouldn't be so many Malpractice suits in the US if this was true.

My roommate at the time in L.A. used to play for the Wisconsin Badgers and his knees were basically shot. He had both knees replaced, after waiting I might add, and still was full of pain. He saw doctor after doctor and they blew him off too, basically he could never find anyone who would really help him get the true care he needed.

Both systems are flawed, very, very flawed, but at least we pay far less for ours.

Think of it this way, when you factor in profits into your healthcare, they're gonna cut corners, their not out to make you better, their out to make money.

Profit is the biggest incentive out there to improve your product and make it better.

Look at cars, cell phones, computers. Profit encourages companies to invest in R&D to have an edge over their competition. I gov't monopoly eliminates all that.

Remember when liquor stores and registries in AB were government owned and regulated? There were so few of them. Their stock was limited and line-ups were frequent. Now, there are registries and liquor stores within walking distance in every community

[The Unabomber]

The way that Canadian health care is set up is great, where the problem lies is that family doctors are not accountable to anyone. I've had buggered knee for about 12 years now, i know that i need surgery again within the next 5-6 years so i go and see my doctor so he can get me in to see a vascular surgeon, my doctor wanted the hospital that i had my original surgery at so he can locate the surgeon who operated on me to begin with, he says that i'll get a call within 7-10 days. No call comes so i call him, they tell me that i never had surgery at the Rockyview because i'm not in the records there, i laughed and told them to give me the number for the records department at the hospital. I call and they tell me that it's going to be in a different building because they only hold records for 7 years, they call me back the next day with all the info i needed and set me up and appointment with a surgeon.

I called to issue a complaint regarding the original doctor and i was told to not even bother, the lady basically told me that it's next to impossible to issue a complaint against a family doctor.

Now, if they have a ruling body over family doctors that someone can issue complaints to then i'm sure that things would turn around, right now it's an assembly line of people and the quicker that they can get a patient in and out the more money they make.

[Cal-Gal]

Originally Posted by arsenal

There already is a 2-tiered system in canada. Gov't officails have access to care that the general public don't have.
How is that fair?

Well said. And that's not all...military personnell, federal inmates, RCMP officers, and our beloved professional athletes......I wrecked my knee waterskiing two summers ago, waited 12 weeks for an MRI. When Robyn Regehr blew out his knee at season's end last year, guess how long he waited...

[Azure]

Think of it this way....if people have money, which many do, and they need health care, which A LOT do....and they need it in an urgent manner...NONE of them are going to wait here in Canada to get checked.

They're going to go to the US....and instead of their money going into the Canadian economy....instead the US gets it.

If the government would contract out certain operations, like Great Britain does, waiting lists would be severely reduced. Problem is it gets expensive.

Yet, there are positives in doing that....one being that the money stays in Canada....and we don't lose so many doctors and nurses to the American system.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by fotze

Its not clear in your story why the doctor should have the complaint placed. I am not following?

What took me 2 minutes of calling got me what i needed, the doctor obviously didn't do his job in following up in regards to obtaining my records or following up with me. The only thing that he was able to do was question me weather i actually had surgery at the Rockyview.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by La Flames Fan

Everyone seems to think the American way is so much more advanced, the doctors are high and above the Canadians, well that just isn't true.

Trust me there wouldn't be so many Malpractice suits in the US if this was true.

My roommate at the time in L.A. used to play for the Wisconsin Badgers and his knees were basically shot. He had both knees replaced, after waiting I might add, and still was full of pain. He saw doctor after doctor and they blew him off too, basically he could never find anyone who would really help him get the true care he needed.

Both systems are flawed, very, very flawed, but at least we pay far less for ours.

Think of it this way, when you factor in profits into your healthcare, they're gonna cut corners, their not out to make you better, their out to make money.

The fact of multiple malpractice suits in the US is not exclusively due to their rampant incompetence. You can't sue doctors in Canada. If you could, there'd be hundreds of suits, most of which directed at the walk-in clinics, and their appaling correct diagnosis percentage.

I agree with Cal-Gal... there isn't a choice of two systems. Europe has better healthcare than both Canada and the US, and they don't fit in either the "public or private monopoly".

And to play devil's advocate some more... think of it this way, when you factor in a fixed budget that does not adjust with inflation into your healthcare, they're gonna cut corners, they're out to make the an acceptable amount of people better with what they can afford, and that's not neccesarily you. That newest piece of equipment necessary to keeping you alive might not be available due to expense and rarity of need.

[Sylvanfan]

I think we'll add a poll to this one and see how it plays out. It has been debated before, but I don't think we ever had a poll.

[Cal-Gal]

Originally Posted by fotze

Because if you get iinjured while working you jump the que. Are you a professional waterskier?

Nope. But I don't think being forced to wait 3 months for a diagnostic procedure is acceptable.

[Azure]

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I say that most people here would probably support the two-tier system.

I don't think you should be turned back from a walk-in clinic...but you should also be able to pay for the best knee surgery and post-surgery recovery available.

[Rockin' Flames]

Originally Posted by fotze

If you are aware of this then you are at fault if you do nothing. Doctors have no problem telling you that they are booked for the day. When you are in the room wiuth that doctor they are obligated to do the job right. That's all. I am sure they are rammed full. If they are not going to do the job right, then they should refuse to see those patients (then this gets bigger and the politicians dedicate more resources) or at leaat tell the patient they are not doing a thorough job, that is at least owed to the patient. It burdens the system more when the check up is done half-arsed and you end up having to see 5 doctors to get to the right conclusion.

another problem is the public doesn't know how the system works either. Are doctors required to see 800 patients a day. I have no idea. I think doctors need to be treated a lot less than crap when they first start interning. Why take a badly needed resource and pretty much rape them for the first 5 years of their career. That's just stupid.

Doctors do not have a required number of patients they have to see per day. For each patient visit, family doctors are only permitted to bill for one problem with that patient. They do have a responsibility to do the right job but what incentive does a doctor have to spend 1 hour with a patient addressing 6-7 problems knowing that they can only bill for one of those problems. So essentially after addressing one problem they are working for free. So will most doctors ensure that you have nothing wrong with you that would be life threatening? Sure. But to expect a doctor to spend a lot of time on each patient is not realistic.

I agree with you that the doctors are treated like crap when they start interning. However, this will take a long time to change because you have the mentality from the training docs that "well I went through this so you should have to as well." This is a very similar mentality in a lot of the professions, ie. Chartered Accountants, Lawyers, etc.

[Nehkara]

Two tier system is an idiotic idea. It would completely cripple the public system because the private system would attract all of the best doctors. The introduction of the private system could also up the costs of the public system because private could pay more for employees, forcing the pubkic system to either suffice with substandard employees or match. Terrible, terrible idea. Anyone who thinks that a private or two-tier system are the way to go is just not well informed.

[trew]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

The way that Canadian health care is set up is great, where the problem lies is that family doctors are not accountable to anyone. I've had buggered knee for about 12 years now, i know that i need surgery again within the next 5-6 years so i go and see my doctor so he can get me in to see a vascular surgeon, my doctor wanted the hospital that i had my original surgery at so he can locate the surgeon who operated on me to begin with, he says that i'll get a call within 7-10 days. No call comes so i call him, they tell me that i never had surgery at the Rockyview because i'm not in the records there, i laughed and told them to give me the number for the records department at the hospital. I call and they tell me that it's going to be in a different building because they only hold records for 7 years, they call me back the next day with all the info i needed and set me up and appointment with a surgeon.

I called to issue a complaint regarding the original doctor and i was told to not even bother, the lady basically told me that it's next to impossible to issue a complaint against a family doctor.

Now, if they have a ruling body over family doctors that someone can issue complaints to then i'm sure that things would turn around, right now it's an assembly line of people and the quicker that they can get a patient in and out the more money they make.

Family doctors get paid a nominal amount for an in-office visit, it's like $25. They don't get paid by what they do, nor by the number of issues they treat in a visit. With the rent and admin costs in Calgary they pretty much have to only spend 5-10 minutes per patient or they cannot break even, income-wise, with even a low paying professional job. It's an awful system and the financial renumeration is completely backwards to what it should be.

It's no wonder family doctors are fleeing Calgary in terrible numbers. The workload is high, the pay is terrible, and the costs are out of control.

The ones that are left are forced to grind patients through, or subsidize their existance by specializing in non-family work and end up spending less time providing family service. The end result is less doctors, providing less service to more people.

[mykalberta]

I would vote for a modified 2 teir system (A full 2 teir able to line jump system simply wouldnt work).

Where people cant pay to jump but the goverment can contract out procedures. It has the added benefit especially in Alberta in weakening the ever powerful nurses union.

The problem is that the public system would get cremed in the stats and that would force more money to be washed downed the drain to imporve the statistics of the public system.

Also, if you were running a serious private system in Alberta - you wouldnt hire Canadian grads (so there would be no employee drain). You would bring over nurses and doctors from India/Eastern Europe and paid to get them certified and have them on a 10 year contract. When it runs out you dump them (if they get dilusions of union) and do it all over again. Have the imports overseen by a very select few North American trained workers (likely from the US and less likely to be sucked into a union movement).

I personally think a system like that would work fantastically - also the private clinic wouldnt diagnose, only repairs etc. That way you funnel people through the normal chains and then the hospital shuffles them off from there. That way there is no competing between private and public since you dont have an option.

MYK

[moon]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Two tier system is an idiotic idea. It would completely cripple the public system because the private system would attract all of the best doctors. The introduction of the private system could also up the costs of the public system because private could pay more for employees, forcing the pubkic system to either suffice with substandard employees or match. Terrible, terrible idea. Anyone who thinks that a private or two-tier system are the way to go is just not well informed.

The system that we have now is idiotic. Anyone who thinks that it is the way to continue is just nopt realistic.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think you should be turned back from a walk-in clinic...but you should also be able to pay for the best knee surgery and post-surgery recovery available.

So the rich should have better health care treatment than the poor?

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Nehkara

Two tier system is an idiotic idea. It would completely cripple the public system because the private system would attract all of the best doctors. The introduction of the private system could also up the costs of the public system because private could pay more for employees, forcing the pubkic system to either suffice with substandard employees or match. Terrible, terrible idea. Anyone who thinks that a private or two-tier system are the way to go is just not well informed.

Sorry Nehkara, I'm very well informed and I disagree with you. Cal-Gal has very articulately identified the true ignorance I hear all the time. Everybody is so quick to automatically assume that you give an inch and suddenly doctors take a mile and health care is suddenly run by mercenary doctors for hire. The fallacy of the slippery slope.

What people should really be discussing is the DEGREES of privatization, not this all or nothing mentality. Aspects of privatization are already here amongst us - "elective" vs. necessary surgical procedures, private MRI's/CT's....etc - so you are already seeing it in action. The public and private systems can coexist, provided there is some proper regulation. If you fear losing the best doctors to the private side, put a limit on their abilities to bill privately, or require a quota of public billing. Here you are providing some incentive to work extra, in addition to maintaing the public side. This is a better alternative than losing them all together to the US.

And to the guy (unabomber) whining about his doctor, he's not your secretary. He's probably doing the public more of a service treating 5 patients with real medical problems, rather than using that time to sort out the problems of the RGH patient records office (completely seperate from his own office). Not to mention he's only obligated to refer you to a vascular surgeon, not to set you up with the previous one, in the nicest hospital in town, as soon as possible for some surgery you might need in 5-6 years. Again, as per previous forum discussions, this overwhelming sense of entitlement some people have is a huge reason why public health care is in a crisis. You are part of the problem, get over yourself!!!

And your comment about not being able to launch a complaint? You're either completely ignorant or lying for the sake of sensationalism. Complaints are very easily made through our professional group - the college of physicians and surgeons - and taken very serious, leading to disciplinary action if warrented. Here, i'll even give you the link which took me 2 seconds to find on google:

http://www.cpsa.ab.ca/complaints/complaintprocess.asp
________
OREGON MEDICAL MARIJUANA

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

So the rich should have better health care treatment than the poor?

They have access to the best dental care, optometry, costmetic surgery, homes, food, clothes, cars, boats, etc.

I don't see why health care should be any different

[Burninator]

/\ That's terrible.

[La Flames Fan]

I don't think more profit exactly equals better "product" or service. I was with Kaiser Permanente. On one side, sure you will have a greater R&D, more up-to-date technologies and diagnosis, but on the flip side you have a reluctance to do procedures that aren't deemed "necessary" and there becomes a fine line between profit and care.

I myself believe in a two-tiered or two-option system. You can opt in to private healthcare, at your expense, but if you can't do that, you will always have healthcare.

The other thing in all of this is really the competence of the doctor. You can have brilliant doctors in both countries, and very bad doctors in both.

The fixed budget without the consideration of inflation has an impact, but I don't think the big impact you propose. From what I see there isn't a new machine or technology out on the market every month, week, day. I'm sure most healthcare cases are pretty "routine" and don't require that fancy new GE machine.

Just my opinion.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by Burninator

/\ That's terrible.

The mid to lower class will still have access to the public health care system, its just that with the two tier, the people who can afford better care faster, have that option if they so choose.

I know when my mom had cancer, instead of waiting weeks for her first chemotherapy session, if we could've paid extra for faster care, you bet we would've. At least we would've had the option as opposed to just sitting and waiting



If you take another essential service like education as a comparable, there are plenty of private schools out there. Do they necessarily have the best teachers? I don't think so. The rich can send their kids to these private schools all they want. It'll just take less pressure off the public system. Schools compete for the best students every year, and students can pick and choose which one they want to attend. With health care, we are forced to just sit and wait