Further proof that Universal Health Care does not work?

[Devils'Advocate]

http://onthefencefilms.com/video/twowomen.html

[Table 5]

still works a hell of a lot better than the alternative.

[arsenal]

And giving people the choice would be even better

[Sylvanfan]

My wife has had all sorts of issues since a car accident she was involved in last year. It has been excessively frustrating as everytime she goes to a doctor it gets blown off and for the life of us we can't find anyone who will take the time to even look to do any type of proper examination. At least if I was able to pay for half an hour of time we might be able to get some extra things done and at least be able to ask some questions and get answers. IMO we're getting what we pay for with our current system. Okay for basic minor care, but when the health condition evolves beyond that our system is too useless to deal with it properly.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Further proof? How about a very slanted view from a dubious source?

Writer and director of the documentary, Stuart E. Browning, is a film director, entrepreneur and health care policy commentator. He has produced and directed The Free Market Cure Video Series, a collection of short films dedicated to informing Americans about the dangers of collectivized medicine and the benefits of free markets in health care. He has collaborated with author and physician David Gratzer to produce freemarketcure.com, a website featuring his videos as well as health care commentary from a pro-capitalism perspective.

If you check out the rest of his films, they are very slanted and extremely RW and pro-enterprise. Also, and not surprisingly, he is backed by the Weekly Standard.

To present the other side of the argument is this article from Monday, pointing out that the United States has fallen to 42nd in the world for life expectancy, and trails every country that has universal health care.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...147506,00.html

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by fotze

Those things I don't really see as a system problem as much as a doctor problem. I am noticing unfortunately like all other professions lately that there is a lack of ownership in the job at times with certain ones (not mine though which is lucky). Maybe they are underpaid or overworked but when they are actually seeing you, it should be done well and thorough.

If I design a bridge that fails and kills people, being overworked will not be an acceptable excuse.

I see that too. I've had doctors on both ends of the spectrum. Ones that will check everything out to a T and others who just want to get you out of their face and have a 'come back when you're dying mentality.'

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by fotze

If I design a bridge that fails and kills people, being overworked will not be an acceptable excuse.

And what if said bridge is the only option accross said span, people will keep using it and using. What if the volumes of the bridge are way more than what was anticipated since, it was built 50 years ago. If the bridge collapses, are you still at fault?
What if you propose building another bridge, that charges a toll. The people who would be willing to pay the toll, would then use this new bridge, and possibly keep the volumes on the old bridge to managable level.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by arsenal

And what if said bridge is the only option accross said span, people will keep using it and using. What if the volumes of the bridge are way more than what was anticipated since, it was built 50 years ago. If the bridge collapses, are you still at fault?
What if you propose building another bridge, that charges a toll. The people who would be willing to pay the toll, would then use this new bridge, and possibly keep the volumes on the old bridge to managable level.

What happens when people can't afford the toll, and there is no other bridge to use?

[Table 5]

considering the farce that goes on in the country below them, i am still amazed how any canadian would want to be even try to emulate the system down here. do you people not realize that you pay hundreds of dollars just to get a frickin vaccination here?

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

What happens when people can't afford the toll, and there is no other bridge to use?

Then it is a flawed system. I never said anything about adopting one over the other.

Why does one always assume that when some proposes a 2-tier system, that the automatic jump will be to pay-through-the-teeth health care? That the public health care will suddenly disappear?

Why can't they co-exist?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by arsenal

Then it is a flawed system. I never said anything about adopting one over the other.

Why does one always assume that when some proposes a 2-tier system, that the automatic jump will be to pay-through-the-teeth health care? That the public health care will suddenly disappear?

Why can't they co-exist?

Because in every single instance it's been tried, that's exactly what happens. And who loses then? The very people that the system is supposed to protect; those that can't afford it.

[JiriHrdina]

Do we have universal health care? So far I'm out of pocket about 4-5K from my knee surgery and various things related to it.

I can't get my leg straight and haven't for 9 months. I'm supposed to go to physio 3-5 times a week at 55 bucks a pop. The regional health authority won't pay for any of it because I'm not low income.

I understand I'm not low income but my physio costs based on 3-5 visits per week cost about $1,000/month. Who can afford that even if you have a moderate income?

From my point of view - doesn't feel much like a public health care system.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

My wife has had all sorts of issues since a car accident she was involved in last year. It has been excessively frustrating as everytime she goes to a doctor it gets blown off and for the life of us we can't find anyone who will take the time to even look to do any type of proper examination. At least if I was able to pay for half an hour of time we might be able to get some extra things done and at least be able to ask some questions and get answers. IMO we're getting what we pay for with our current system. Okay for basic minor care, but when the health condition evolves beyond that our system is too useless to deal with it properly.

I feel for you and your situation, however I would agree that it's probably your doctors. My family has hereditary cancer and if I so much as get a tummy ache, they have me in for a scope.

[mykalberta]

I hatge saying this but I agree with Lanny on part of it.

The Sex Change thing is complete BS - go to Thailand like everyone else and get it done.

For the woman and her blatter, why not just go down to the US and get it done like eveyone else.

The public system isnt here to be the most convieneint option, its there so that people who make less than 30k a year can get medical treatment.

MYK

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by FireFly

Because in every single instance it's been tried, that's exactly what happens. And who loses then? The very people that the system is supposed to protect; those that can't afford it.

So because it has been tried and failed, we shouldn't even attempt? What about the 2-tier system that is already in Canada, just not available to the public?

I am not saying that the public system doesn't work, or that we shouldn't support it. All I am saying is if people want to pay extra for health care, why not give them that option in their own country? How is it going to cripple the current system? If you make sure everyone pays for the public system (even if they opt for the private one), then the funds are still there, and they can choose still choose to use the public system.

I have heard a lot of people say "It wont work", but no one has given a reason to as why? If implemented correctly, it could be a model that everyone could follow.

[Cal-Gal]

IMO, when it comes to Health Care, a lot of Canadians suffer from False Dichotomy Disease. There seems to be this ridiculous assumption that there are only two ways of doing health care: OUR way, and the AMERICAN way....and our way is right and good and fair, and the American way is evil and unjust and don't talk to me about it.

The Canadian health care system is built on the principle of Universality. The US system is not. So comparing the two is kind of silly. How about instead we compare Canada to other countries that have health care systems which also adhere to the principle of universal access:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

It bothers me that so many people think that as long as we're better than the Americans when it comes to health outcomes, then everything is peachy. Problem is, all 29 countries that rank higher on the WHO list than Canada, ALL are based on the notion of universal access, and ALL have a public health system, supplemented by private health options. Canada, Cuba, and North Korea are the only three countries in the world with a complete government monopoly on health care.

I can spend my money on darn-near whatever I want in this country....I can buy snowmobiles, or Flames tickets, or cigarettes that make me sick...but I can't - by law - spend my own money on health insurance for myself and my family. Seems odd to me.

I'm not advocating for the US system...God knows its got a lot of ugly problems. But saying we're not going to touch Canadian health care because we don't want to "Americanize" our system is a purely political argument - one that holds no water when it comes to improving access and addressing patient needs.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by arsenal

So because it has been tried and failed, we shouldn't even attempt? What about the 2-tier system that is already in Canada, just not available to the public?

I am not saying that the public system doesn't work, or that we shouldn't support it. All I am saying is if people want to pay extra for health care, why not give them that option in their own country? How is it going to cripple the current system? If you make sure everyone pays for the public system (even if they opt for the private one), then the funds are still there, and they can choose still choose to use the public system.

I have heard a lot of people say "It wont work", but no one has given a reason to as why? If implemented correctly, it could be a model that everyone could follow.

well say you have the two systems, private and public. like everything else, the private system will cater to the rich. so say you're a doctor just finishing med school and have to choose between what system you'll enter. do you go for the public one, or opt for private and make twice as much money? the two tiered system won't work because the private will leech away all the resources from the public, and eventually it will be all you're left with

some things just should not be privatized, and healthcare is at the top of the list. hell i don't even think auto insurance should be. i pay about twice as much for my car insurance in Alberta compared to what i'd be paying in BC through ICBC

[La Flames Fan]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

My wife has had all sorts of issues since a car accident she was involved in last year. It has been excessively frustrating as everytime she goes to a doctor it gets blown off and for the life of us we can't find anyone who will take the time to even look to do any type of proper examination. At least if I was able to pay for half an hour of time we might be able to get some extra things done and at least be able to ask some questions and get answers. IMO we're getting what we pay for with our current system. Okay for basic minor care, but when the health condition evolves beyond that our system is too useless to deal with it properly.

Everyone seems to think the American way is so much more advanced, the doctors are high and above the Canadians, well that just isn't true.

Trust me there wouldn't be so many Malpractice suits in the US if this was true.

My roommate at the time in L.A. used to play for the Wisconsin Badgers and his knees were basically shot. He had both knees replaced, after waiting I might add, and still was full of pain. He saw doctor after doctor and they blew him off too, basically he could never find anyone who would really help him get the true care he needed.

Both systems are flawed, very, very flawed, but at least we pay far less for ours.

Think of it this way, when you factor in profits into your healthcare, they're gonna cut corners, their not out to make you better, their out to make money.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

some things just should not be privatized, and healthcare is at the top of the list. hell i don't even think auto insurance should be. i pay about twice as much for my car insurance in Alberta compared to what i'd be paying in BC through ICBC

You must be under 25. Because for me now it's far less expensive to insure my car in Alberta than it would be in B.C. But that wasn't the case when I was 24.

I just find that with dental care which is essentially a private medical service, when I need something done I can get it done. My employer and my wife's employer both provide us with insurance and in the end I got a substantial amount of work done this year and the cost to me wasn't that much after the insurance claims went through. I was able to get the work done properly and when it was convenient for me. Between what I pay for extended medical premiums and the cost of the work it wasn't really that much. If Dentistry and dental insurance can make it work...I don't know why other helth care couldn't?

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

well say you have the two systems, private and public. like everything else, the private system will cater to the rich. so say you're a doctor just finishing med school and have to choose between what system you'll enter. do you go for the public one, or opt for private and make twice as much money? the two tiered system won't work because the private will leech away all the resources from the public, and eventually it will be all you're left with

some things just should not be privatized, and healthcare is at the top of the list. hell i don't even think auto insurance should be. i pay about twice as much for my car insurance in Alberta compared to what i'd be paying in BC through ICBC

So having doctors leave to other countries because of the private system is a better solution?
OK, doctors coming out of med school work in both systems, just as the doctors who have been working for 20+ years would. After a certain time, allow them to choose which system they choose to focus on.

There already is a 2-tiered system in canada. Gov't officails have access to care that the general public don't have.
How is that fair?