Alberta Politics & Government Thread 4.0

[Julio]

Originally Posted by DJones

You can't really compare the two. Norway for example dumps all of their resource "royalties" into corporate taxes and they also includes property taxes and everything else. And its a tiny country, I think they have three levels of government but its nothing in comparison to a province.

https://taxfoundation.org/location/n...istration%20(5)

Main thing I see is sales tax brings in the same amount of money as income taxes. In Canada, income taxes are 400-500% more. Which ya, 25% is 500% more than 5%. That tracks. I'd have to read how their corporate taxes work but I imagine normalizing that would make the disparity even worse.

Using Alberta as an example, I think a 5% PST is estimated to bring in about 5 billion. So maybe 7% of government spending.

I think your numbers are off on the amount a sales tax would bring in. Sask, with a quarter of the population (abet with a 6% rate) is budgeted to bring in over three billion in sales tax revenue this year, and is within one percent of what they bring in via personal income taxes.
https://www.saskatchewan.ca/governme...id-year-report To download Sask.'s mid year report with the numbers I cite.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by DJones

I mean it's both. We've essentially gifted twenty to thirty billion to eastern Canada each year for decades. That would be a hell of a fund to have.

If everyone paid 20 percent more in PST that fund would be massive

One of those things was under Alberta's control. Regardless how much net tax money went to Ottawa, the province could have invested 100% of royalties in the Heritage fund (as planned) and made up the difference with PST or other policies. I don't know if the fund would be Norway big but it would be pretty huge by now. The excuse that Ottawa takes too much money for us to build a wealth fund is a dodge IMO.

Edit: I'm not accusing you of dodging - you talk about both scenarios. I'm referring to it as a common deflection people use to defend the government's history with the Heritage fund.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Alright. I've been thinking about this a lot and I can't believe I'm asking it semi-seriously. But do people have an exit plan if separation begins to become a reality? I know it's easy enough to say it'll never happen... but if it does. If the process actually begins it seems like it's already too late to leave, house prices will tank, everyone will be trying to leave at once.

If it goes worst case scenario and the US "helps" Alberta separate then I don't think we'll even be able to leave if we wanted to.

So what is the line? Where do we have to get to for some of you to pull the plug and go somewhere else? My wife and I could work virtually anywhere, and I've got a 5 year old and 1 year old daughter. I do not want any part of separation and if it actually happens, I don't want to wait too long that I'm unable to leave or recognize any sort of value on my property.

It is something in the back of mind. We’re in a similar situation, can work anymore and the biggest concern is tanking of housing pricing in Alberta. I wish the premier would actually tell everyone what separation would entail before any kind of vote is held. Instead, it seems like it is just “blow it all up and see what happens” approach.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

Alright. I've been thinking about this a lot and I can't believe I'm asking it semi-seriously. But do people have an exit plan if separation begins to become a reality? I know it's easy enough to say it'll never happen... but if it does. If the process actually begins it seems like it's already too late to leave, house prices will tank, everyone will be trying to leave at once.

If it goes worst case scenario and the US "helps" Alberta separate then I don't think we'll even be able to leave if we wanted to.

So what is the line? Where do we have to get to for some of you to pull the plug and go somewhere else? My wife and I could work virtually anywhere, and I've got a 5 year old and 1 year old daughter. I do not want any part of separation and if it actually happens, I don't want to wait too long that I'm unable to leave or recognize any sort of value on my property.

We're getting to the point where separation or no separation, is this the kind of place we want to live in. But F me, I don't want to rebuild my social network at my age, and sunlight is the only thing that keeps me sane in winter.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

OOoo, careful now, you'll get the perpetually aggrieved all riled up about Norway not having an entire country stealing their money, sucking at the teat of Western Hyper-Exceptionalism.

Norway to Alberta is a poor comparison. Norway can function as an independent state because it has a coastline and a mountain fortress bordering it's land neighbour in Sweden. So geographically it can be independent. For me the number 1 reason why Alberta could never be a legitimate Independent state is because the Geography is too much to overcome.

Not to mention Norway's ethnicity of 80 plus percent having the same culture also is advantageous. Far easier to get things done politically and blend new comers into a singular culture. Norway has on their own choosing their own opted not to join the EU, but still are part of the EEA and NATO. I argue that again their Geography allows them to not need to contribute to the EU and remain independent, but their resources, position, and expertise in the Arctic also allows them to still be a crucial ally for these groups.

So wanting to cherry pick why only Alberta sucks when compared to Norway is a bit disingenuous. Why didn't Canada build a Sovereign wealth fund like Norway did? Geography and an ethnically diverse culture play a large role in this. Likewise for Alberta to gain access to a larger block of people, and geographical defence support, it does require a contribution to that Federal system. It's not much different than the Separatists looking at Norway's economic strength and autonomy but ignoring it's geographical advantages.

You can't compare the two. Yes Norway's sovereign wealth fund and how they generate their revenue should be studied and analyzed. But if other states or sub states could just copy it and get the same results, it would have happened by now.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by edslunch

One of those things was under Alberta's control. Regardless how much net tax money went to Ottawa, the province could have invested 100% of royalties in the Heritage fund (as planned) and made up the difference with PST or other policies. I don't know if the fund would be Norway big but it would be pretty huge by now. The excuse that Ottawa takes too much money for us to build a wealth fund is a dodge IMO.

Edit: I'm not accusing you of dodging - you talk about both scenarios. I'm referring to it as a common deflection people use to defend the government's history with the Heritage fund.

I mean ya, I don't think anyone argues that if we taxed ourselves more we'd have more money. That's just common sense.

What people get worked up on is how much we get taxed that goes elsewhere

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DJones

I mean it's both. We've essentially gifted twenty to thirty billion to eastern Canada each year for decades. That would be a hell of a fund to have.

If everyone paid 20 percent more in PST that fund would be massive

That's not how any of this works, and that you use the term "we" as if it is us vs them is further proof people like you are part of the problem. We are Canadian. We are a country. You are not better than them, or more deserving of our fortune in resources to use language like that. Get the #### over it already or get the #### out.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

You can't compare the two. Yes Norway's sovereign wealth fund and how they generate their revenue should be studied and analyzed. But if other states or sub states could just copy it and get the same results, it would have happened by now.

Maybe we could look to where Norway got their inspiration for a model to follow?

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Julio

I think your numbers are off on the amount a sales tax would bring in. Sask, with a quarter of the population (abet with a 6% rate) is budgeted to bring in over three billion in sales tax revenue this year, and is within one percent of what they bring in via personal income taxes.
https://www.saskatchewan.ca/governme...id-year-report To download Sask.'s mid year report with the numbers I cite.

They only bring in 3 billion in income taxes? That seems impossible. Link doesn't say and I'm not home haha

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's not how any of this works, and that you use the term "we" as if it is us vs them is further proof people like you are part of the problem. We are Canadian. We are a country. You are not better than them, or more deserving of our fortune in resources to use language like that. Get the #### over it already or get the #### out.

I mean you can be happy about giving that much money away and think it's patriotic.

Still true, and yes I know how equalization and transfer payments work more than you

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DJones

I mean you can be happy about giving that much money away and think it's patriotic.

Still true, and yes I know how equalization and transfer payments work more than you

You obviously don’t.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

You obviously don’t.

Haha by all means explain your position and I'll counter

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by DJones

We don't pay for oas is the funny part. While I understand the boomers paid for it with payroll, manufacturing, and income taxes increases. That was in the ####ing 70s. And those same boomers wildly underpaid for cpp for decades. It evens out. Oas shouldn't exist. Only reason it exists is because young people are morons and have no idea what is going on

What do you mean by 'we don't pay for oas'?


As in we don't tax enough to fund it, or you don't think our taxes go to funding it?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by DJones

I mean you can be happy about giving that much money away and think it's patriotic.

Still true, and yes I know how equalization and transfer payments work more than you

You aren't giving any money away. That's not how this works. Again.


####, I wish we had better education. So much ignorance driving false narratives that manipulate people into made up grievances.


Go hug a Canadian today. Feel some humanity for a brief moment in your life.

[Julio]

Originally Posted by DJones

They only bring in 3 billion in income taxes? That seems impossible. Link doesn't say and I'm not home haha

You have to download the PDF from that link to get the numbers, but yes, Saskatchewan gets the same amount of $ from sales taxes and from personal income tax:
TABLE 3: 2025-26 SCHEDULE OF REVENUE
As at March 31
(millions of dollars)
Mid-Year Change From
Budget First Quarter Mid-Year Budget First Quarter
Taxation
Corporation income 1,658.5 1,658.5 1,658.5 - -
Fuel 519.7 519.7 519.7 - -
Personal income 3,382.1 3,382.1 3,382.1 - -
Property 816.1 816.1 819.7 3.6 3.6
Provincial sales 3,331.3 3,331.3 3,331.3 - -
Other taxation 741.8 741.8 703.8 (38.0) (38.0)
Total Taxation 10,449.5 10,449.5 10,415.1 (34.4) (34.4)

In comparison, Alberta is forcasting personal income tax revenues of just over $15 billion for this year.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by DJones

Haha by all means explain your position and I'll counter

My position is that you obviously don’t understand how equalization and transfer payments work based on your comments here.

Feel free to counter but thus far I haven’t found much value in your comments so I won’t chase you down if you don’t bother.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You aren't giving any money away. That's not how this works. Again.


####, I wish we had better education. So much ignorance driving false narratives that manipulate people into made up grievances.


Go hug a Canadian today. Feel some humanity for a brief moment in your life.

All taxes are giving money away. I know exactly how they are paid. It's what I get back in return that I find insulting.

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by DJones

All taxes are giving money away. I know exactly how they are paid. It's what I get back in return that I find insulting.

Is everyone getting mad and arguing the same point?

Citizens are getting shafted at every turn by this government, and nobody knows where the money is going.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Julio

I think your numbers are off on the amount a sales tax would bring in. Sask, with a quarter of the population (abet with a 6% rate) is budgeted to bring in over three billion in sales tax revenue this year, and is within one percent of what they bring in via personal income taxes.
https://www.saskatchewan.ca/governme...id-year-report To download Sask.'s mid year report with the numbers I cite.

well ####, all the more reason to have a pst then. I imagine their industry to personal income ratios are below ours but that's crazy. I just recalled seeing the 5 billion in some article. It may be a lot higher given that example.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

My position is that you obviously don’t understand how equalization and transfer payments work based on your comments here.

Feel free to counter but thus far I haven’t found much value in your comments so I won’t chase you down if you don’t bother.

What do you want to learn about? Fiscal capacity? How using average taxes distorts reality? How crown corporations and resources revenue in general doesn't reflect reality? Should we talk about the 3 year average rule? The complete refusal to acknowledge anti economic regulations?

Transfer payments shouldn't be too hard to explain. Everyone gets the same per capita in spending. So the province that pays drastically more in taxes clearly gets less than they paid.