[Trade] Andersson (50% retained) to Vegas for 27 1st, cond 28 2nd, Whitecloud, Wiebe

[Muta]

I have thoroughly enjoyed the addition of Whitecloud; would be totally okay if he stays here as a veteran on our blueline; such a solid, stabilizing presence and has terrific character to boot. Feels like he was made to be a Flame.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Muta

I have thoroughly enjoyed the addition of Whitecloud; would be totally okay if he stays here as a veteran on our blueline; such a solid, stabilizing presence and has terrific character to boot. Feels like he was made to be a Flame.

Thank you for pumping his tires. I hope we get even more from trading him!!!

It's funny though, he sounds a LOT like Weegar but, I do not think he is as good as Weegar and if Weegar were traded, I think Whitecloud will start to look worse and worse with the added responsibility and reduced support.

Trading Whitecloud makes too much sense. He has a smaller cap hit, he has no trade protection, and he is looking really good right now.

Weegar on the other hand has a much bigger cap hit and full trade protection.

I think it is easy to trade Whitecloud and get good value on him after showcasing him playing an average of 23 minutes per game with the Flames. Quick bidding war with no special considerations and off he goes! I think he could get a 1st based on playing top 4 minutes and having 2 seasons of term after this one for under $3M.

[Enoch Root]

I always thought Whitecloud was a solid defender, one of those guys that good teams have, that are solid, but go mostly unnoticed, and people just assume they are just a product of a good team (not much of a player in their own right).

During VGS' cup run, he was an absolute beast, but lesser defensemen rise to the occasion in the playoffs sometimes - going full Commodore - and that's all I figured in this case: a decent player who had a monstrous cup run.

But seeing him every night, you see he is every bit the player he showed in the playoffs. He does so many things well, and does them with size and strength and confidence - it is becoming clear that he was a much larger contributor to that vaunted VGS D core than anyone was giving him credit for. You have to give Conroy and his team huge credit for this, he really plucked a gem from VGS.

At first, I thought we should trade him. But now I think he is the perfect player to play with the kids - solid, dependable, and tough. I disagree with the poster above - I am starting to think it would be better to trade Weegar (who I have been a huge fan of), and keep Whitecloud. However, I think that is a trade for next year. Let things settle, get more games with Whitecloud to really see what we have here. And let Weegar regroup and have a better year next year. Also, give Parekh and Brzustewicz a little more time. Then we can move Weegar next year, from a position of strength.

Bahl and Whitecloud can be the solid pillars to support the talented young (and smaller) D that are coming.

Conroy killed this trade: a 1st + 2nd (conditional) + Whitecloud + B/C prospect

is a huge return for Andersson, when you realize Whitecloud might be the best piece.

[Roko]

If you can get a late first or a high second for Whitecloud it’s worth it now to move him.

He is valuable now because of cost for term and how good he is. Weegar can get some time to bounce back and then move him as the young guys are more established

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I always thought Whitecloud was a solid defender, one of those guys that good teams have, that are solid, but go mostly unnoticed, and people just assume they are just a product of a good team (not much of a player in their own right).

During VGS' cup run, he was an absolute beast, but lesser defensemen rise to the occasion in the playoffs sometimes - going full Commodore - and that's all I figured in this case: a decent player who had a monstrous cup run.

But seeing him every night, you see he is every bit the player he showed in the playoffs. He does so many things well, and does them with size and strength and confidence - it is becoming clear that he was a much larger contributor to that vaunted VGS D core than anyone was giving him credit for. You have to give Conroy and his team huge credit for this, he really plucked a gem from VGS.

At first, I thought we should trade him. But now I think he is the perfect player to play with the kids - solid, dependable, and tough. I disagree with the poster above - I am starting to think it would be better to trade Weegar (who I have been a huge fan of), and keep Whitecloud. However, I think that is a trade for next year. Let things settle, get more games with Whitecloud to really see what we have here. And let Weegar regroup and have a better year next year. Also, give Parekh and Brzustewicz a little more time. Then we can move Weegar next year, from a position of strength.

Bahl and Whitecloud can be the solid pillars to support the talented young (and smaller) D that are coming.

Conroy killed this trade: a 1st + 2nd (conditional) + Whitecloud + B/C prospect

is a huge return for Andersson, when you realize Whitecloud might be the best piece.

Honestly, I think this is great. Right off of the bat when I saw Whitecloud's name in the trade I thought "cap dump to make the dollars work".

However, I don't believe Weegar is struggling. I think Weegar is doing the heavily lifting this season and that is why Andersson had the opportunity to look better. It looks exactly the same as Andersson's "struggle" last season. I think any GM or pro scout that looks at Weegar would see that there is nothing wrong with him personally and that the stats are expected when you look at the team performance.

In the end, I think Weegar is still better than Whitecloud but I am willing to say that they are close enough to be equivalent. However, the argument still stands that trading Whitecloud makes far more sense.

Weegar v Whitecloud

Staying on the roster:
Whitecloud has looked solid in his sample of games with Bahl.
Weegar consistently makes his D partner look significantly better, whether it is Hanley or Kuznetsov or whomever.

Cap hit:
Whitecloud's cap hit is easier to trade and could easily be traded mid-season. Whitecloud's smaller cap hit has less value to keep on a rebuilding team that needs to stay above the cap floor.
Weegar's larger cap hit makes him harder to trade mid-season. His larger cap hit makes him more valuable to keep

Term:
Weegar's longer term is more valuable in a trade (more control for the receiving team) but also more valuable to keep as he can be one of the cap hits helping the team reach the rising floor and anchor/mentor the D group
Whitecloud's shorter term may be less valuable to trade but it also poses a risk to keep as he is unlikely to re-sign in a couple of seasons

Trade Clause:
Weegar will be harder to trade as he has full NTC and can dictate how the trade goes. This could significantly impact the return.
Whitecloud has no trade protection and with 2 more seasons after this one extensions are not a consideration. He can be traded for maximum value in a bidding war.

I think a bidding war for Whitecloud could get more than a 1st in value. Perhaps not as much as Andersson brought back but Whitecloud's contract and term definitely help boost his value as does his recent performance. I think any of the contenders who were interested in Andersson should consider Whitecloud as a consolation prize. (Stars, Red Wings, Bruins, Canadiens)

Also, I think there is an opportunity for a much bigger trade. With a few teams poking around Kadri, the Flames could use the last retention slot to essentially bundle Kadri and Whitecloud within Kadri's current cap hit. You cannot do that with Weegar.

[Ryan Coke]

I’ve actually become kind of amazed at how much Vegas paid for the relatively modest difference between Rasmus and Whitecloud. Andersson is better offensively, but it seems like a lot to pay for that difference considering how good Whitecloud is.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’ve actually become kind of amazed at how much Vegas paid for the relatively modest difference between Rasmus and Whitecloud. Andersson is better offensively, but it seems like a lot to pay for that difference considering how good Whitecloud is.

Especially when they gave up two full years of Whitecloud to get Andersson as a rental. They could easily have kept Whitecloud and the picks and signed Andersson in the summer.

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’ve actually become kind of amazed at how much Vegas paid for the relatively modest difference between Rasmus and Whitecloud. Andersson is better offensively, but it seems like a lot to pay for that difference considering how good Whitecloud is.

Their initial offer didn't include the first, Conny did well to extract a lot of value out of Vegas.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Ryan Coke

I’ve actually become kind of amazed at how much Vegas paid for the relatively modest difference between Rasmus and Whitecloud. Andersson is better offensively, but it seems like a lot to pay for that difference considering how good Whitecloud is.

Sample size distorts here. Andersson has five 30+ points seasons in a row, including a 50 pt season, and a career .45 pts/gp

Whitecloud has a career high of 19 points and .22 pts/gp in his career. Seems to have been a 6/7th guy, most of his years, clocking about 60 games a season.

Not the same caliber of player at all, historically.

[cam_calderon]

Yeah I doubt Whitecloud could play second pairing on an actually good team.

[Sandman]

Told y'all we would like Whitecloud.

(ok, maybe not everyone)

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

Yeah I doubt Whitecloud could play second pairing on an actually good team.

He was playing second pairing in Vegas before the trade.

[Brad Marsh]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

He was playing second pairing in Vegas before the trade.

Which is why they traded him for Andersson

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Itse

Sample size distorts here. Andersson has five 30+ points seasons in a row, including a 50 pt season, and a career .45 pts/gp

Whitecloud has a career high of 19 points and .22 pts/gp in his career. Seems to have been a 6/7th guy, most of his years, clocking about 60 games a season.

Not the same caliber of player at all, historically.

Why are you using points to compare an offensive defenseman with a defensive defenseman?

That would make Chris Tanev a 6/7 guy too.

Tanev the last three years ... 16:18 five on five minutes per game.

Whitecloud the last three years ... 16:15 five on five minutes per game.

6/7 guys don't play 16+ minutes five on five per game.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

Yeah I doubt Whitecloud could play second pairing on an actually good team.

Wasn't he playing 2nd pairing on Vegas?

Andersson is a 2/3 dman who can create offense. Whitecloud is 3/4 who is more of a defensive player.

[Heavy Jack]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

Yeah I doubt Whitecloud could play second pairing on an actually good team.

He lead all Vegas D in 5 on 5 ice time this year before the trade and has averaged 17:51 of ice time through his 8 year career to date - I’d say he was handling 2nd pairing deployment on a contender just fine. Still can’t believe he was included in the deal.

[GioforPM]

I think Whitecloud looks as good as Andersson, they just have different skill sets (and IMO Whitecloud might be a better PO guy).

Even points wise it's not a huge drop so far. Andersson has 4 points since the trade, Whitecloud has 3.

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by Heavy Jack

He lead all Vegas D in 5 on 5 ice time this year before the trade and has averaged 17:51 of ice time through his 8 year career to date - I’d say he was handling 2nd pairing deployment on a contender just fine. Still can’t believe he was included in the deal.

Yeah my bad. Can't say I follow Vegas closely.

Calling them contenders over the last three seasons could be a bit generous, even with Marner they have a losing record this season and their position is propped up by some absolutely mid clubs in the pacific.

[442scotty]

Originally Posted by cam_calderon

Yeah I doubt Whitecloud could play second pairing on an actually good team.

I bet he could.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Honestly, I think this is great. Right off of the bat when I saw Whitecloud's name in the trade I thought "cap dump to make the dollars work".

I think it was more about roster/contract numbers than salary cap.