[Trade] Andersson (50% retained) to Vegas for 27 1st, cond 28 2nd, Whitecloud, Wiebe

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I didn't care about the return months ago when I wanted us to tank. We aren't going to out tank Vancouver now, so will not be guaranteed a top 3 pick and game changer.

We also picked up Whitecloud which doesn't make our team too much worse. I wanted to gut the team, not pick up more vets to keep us out of the bottom of the league. And stop us from playing more younger players.

I hate the trade.

But honest question ...

Does the fact that a poll is now running with about 26.9% against the deal (rest break even or better) make you think you jumped the shark a little early with "garbage" and "disaster" and "if you're honest about it" and "fire everyone"?

There are three or more lanes on Deerfoot, you don't have to go to the outer left one from the onramp without speeding up safely.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

It is so annoying that it is always Vegas. It is the same thing that happened when Marner had an agreed contract with Vegas so fast on July 1. As if he had not been talking to them for months.

And then you have the injury crap that they keep pulling to get players off the books.

I hate that team so much. Even though I like most of their players, they are an annoying organization.

TBH they annoy me but I kind of like it.

They are actually being aggressive and take risks other organizations don't, they abused the other scared NHL GMs going back to the initial expansion draft.

People always say they were given a cushy expansion draft - but the reality is that wasn't the case - their aggressive nature forced other teams into mistakes. They had a choice of teams 8th best forward or 4th best dman - but NHL gms freaked out and gave them way more value to not select those players.

Anaheim (Theodore), Florida (Marchessault / Smith), Pittsburgh (Fleury + 2nd), Islanders (1st, 2nd), Wild (Tuch + Haula), Columbus (Karlsson, 1st + 2nd)

Vegas has been aggressive since day 1 and it's why they are in the position they are in.

Other NHL GMs tend to play it more safe, and I wish more teams would be aggressive like Vegas.

This isn't the Dodgers where they can just spend $200M more then the next closest team, Vegas still has a hard salary cap to abide by, but they just are more aggressive.

Even this trade...I doubt another team would trade a player like Whitecloud who's been a good middle pairing d-man for them to try to get Andersson.

[Monahammer]

Interesting though, I wonder would people have preferred the joked about Ihs-Wozniak + 2nd return?

I am on the fence. Ihs-Wozniak is potentially better than any piece we acquired. Yeah we got a 1st, but is that late 1st better than Ihs-Wozniak? I really don't know.

[Macindoc]

In the end, it's a win - rental top 4 RHD for 1st, 2nd/conditional 1st (which insulates the Flames from some of the potential degradation of the Vegas pick they previously owned), (lesser) top 4 RHD, prospect. Given the amount of time it took, I doubt the Flames could have done better unless Andersson had agreed to extend to go to Boston. Definitely more than he would have got at the trade deadline in the worst season of his career.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I honestly didn’t follow, but conceptually agree with the thought that trading him last year would have “optimized” the return. Given that seems to be one of the biggest beefs, how much better do folks feel the return would have been last year, and what’s the actual trade example(s) one can point to that re-enforces that view?

This is also my question.

We know what Hughes got, which is the absolute ceiling:

First Round pick
Rossi
Buium
Ohgren

What Calgary got is a downgrade on the defender (Buium vs Whitecloud), a downgrade on the prospect (Ohgren vs Wiebe), a conditional second round pick instead of Rossi.

I think the big gap in those packages is the quality of Hughes vs Rasmus. You're not getting much more for Rasmus 1 year ago imo.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Not much from Vegas nope.
Much more from other teams, but he refused to sign anything after saying he'd be open to it so long as Craig let his agent talk to them.

Vegas was the least exciting trade partner, for all the reasons people have outlined. When he changed his tune and refused to talk extensions with "anyone" then things had to pivot and Craig had to go with the team who would give up the most for a "rental" if you want to call it that.

Exactly. So not much point in bemoaning about what could have been with other teams for this trade. Conroy played himself by keeping Andersson on the team last year but he did about as good as he could have given the circumstances. The trade itself is fine but the situation is definitely questionable.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Even this trade...I doubt another team would trade a player like Whitecloud who's been a good middle pairing d-man for them to try to get Andersson.

They pretty much had to trade Whitecloud in this deal (or in a corresponding deal with another team).

But I also don't hate Vegas. Yes, they run cap shenanigans, but so do a lot of teams. I generally don't mind their players - they don't have a team of a-holes. They don't get undue media coverage. And it's a fun arena to visit and their fans are cool.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Royle9

Not much from Vegas nope.
Much more from other teams, but he refused to sign anything after saying he'd be open to it so long as Craig let his agent talk to them.

Vegas was the least exciting trade partner, for all the reasons people have outlined. When he changed his tune and refused to talk extensions with "anyone" then things had to pivot and Craig had to go with the team who would give up the most for a "rental" if you want to call it that.

Vegas is the kind of soft tampering in this scenario.

They knew they were his preferred team. They knew as long as they were in the mix he might be reluctant to sign anywhere else.

So they use the media to leak things like "Vegas is willing to pay more than other teams are in trade without the extension being pre-determined"

And once that's out there why would you settle if you're Andersson. Sure if it feels like Vegas isn't going to pay up and you'll get traded somewhere else as a rental then it's maybe not worth that risk.

But once Andersson knew that Vegas was going to be willing to pay the best package for him as a "rental" and no other teams would step up their offer without assurances of an extension, then there is no reason for him extend away from his preferred destination.

It sucks, and it is very frustrating for Conroy and as a fan, but I don't blame Andersson. It's why you can't let it get to these points, and why they need to be more pro-active in the future.

With Hanifin they didn't have much choice based on when Conroy took over the team. With Andersson they did have a choice, but do understand there were other limitations (poor season, broken foot) at the 2025 deadline. But it's also why maybe they should have shopped him more aggressively at the 2024 Draft when rumors were he was frustrated to be here after that season, and his frustrated garbage bag day interview.

Andersson was always going to do what was best for him, that seems to very much be his personality.

[circle]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Interesting though, I wonder would people have preferred the joked about Ihs-Wozniak + 2nd return?

I am on the fence. Ihs-Wozniak is potentially better than any piece we acquired. Yeah we got a 1st, but is that late 1st better than Ihs-Wozniak? I really don't know.

In other words, is Ihs-Wozniak worth a 2027 1st + Whitecloud + Wiebe? The answer to that I would have to think is no.

[Flamesfan05]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Interesting though, I wonder would people have preferred the joked about Ihs-Wozniak + 2nd return?

I am on the fence. Ihs-Wozniak is potentially better than any piece we acquired. Yeah we got a 1st, but is that late 1st better than Ihs-Wozniak? I really don't know.

I am sure Conroy prefers the 1st and make his own pick

Wozniak is nothing special

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Is the most relevant stat that 90% see it as being a modest loss to modest win. Meaning 90% see it as a somewhat reasonable return?

Yes

And 9/10 post seem relatively level headed in the thread from what I’ve seen in 66 pages !

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I think with it being Vegas (like the Leafs pick last year) - going a year out is better. You know this year's pick will likely be late at this point, but you never know what happens next year.

They are already one of the oldest teams in the league and won't be getting younger any time soon given they haven't drafted a single NHL regular since the 2020 draft and don't have any 1st round picks for the next two years.

These are the same things some posters were saying with the hanifin unprotected pick. How’s that looking now? The odds of Vegas falling off a cliff next year are slim. Just like the odds of Vegas falling off a cliff this year to help return in hanifin trade.

[Roof-Daddy]

The only downside to dealing with Vegas (other than the fact most of us despise them) is it could directly lead to hurting our draft position with their pick. That's obviously something Conroy is very aware of and so he very smartly got that condition added onto the 2028 2nd rounder to offset that downside.

Hopefully Vegas stops the oilers from getting past round 2. The waaaay lesser of two evils.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Interesting though, I wonder would people have preferred the joked about Ihs-Wozniak + 2nd return?

I am on the fence. Ihs-Wozniak is potentially better than any piece we acquired. Yeah we got a 1st, but is that late 1st better than Ihs-Wozniak? I really don't know.

Not for me. He is probably a middle six guy if he hits his peak and I’d rather the Flames take a home run swing like Potter

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cleveland Steam Whistle

I honestly didn’t follow, but conceptually agree with the thought that trading him last year would have “optimized” the return. Given that seems to be one of the biggest beefs, how much better do folks feel the return would have been last year, and what’s the actual trade example(s) one can point to that re-enforces that view?

This post did:

Originally Posted by 1991 Canadian

-I still have some curiosity/delusions about the "what if the Flames traded Andersson last year", but these type of trades aren't as much of a boost as I thought. The Ottawa Senators acquired Jackob Chychrun from the Arizona Coyotes for a 1st and two 2nds. The Flames acquired Hamonic for a 1st and two 2nds. These good player with locked in medium term dollars don't go for that much of a premium over deadline rentals.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

These are the same things some posters were saying with the hanifin unprotected pick. How’s that looking now? The odds of Vegas falling off a cliff next year are slim. Just like the odds of Vegas falling off a cliff this year to help return in hanifin trade.

One thing is for sure, teams that aren’t 100% confident they’ll make the playoffs easily aren’t moving future first round picks.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They pretty much had to trade Whitecloud in this deal (or in a corresponding deal with another team).

But I also don't hate Vegas. Yes, they run cap shenanigans, but so do a lot of teams. I generally don't mind their players - they don't have a team of a-holes. They don't get undue media coverage. And it's a fun arena to visit and their fans are cool.

Sure - but other teams don't make that decision.

They go "Oh we'd have to trade Whitecloud, okay not worth upgrading to Andersson then"

Vegas is aggressive and reaps the benefits of that. Players see it and like it too. It's not just the city that attracts people to that org - it's how the organization operates.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

These are the same things some posters were saying with the hanifin unprotected pick. How’s that looking now? The odds of Vegas falling off a cliff next year are slim. Just like the odds of Vegas falling off a cliff this year to help return in hanifin trade.

They aren't going to be good forever. They literally haven't drafted an NHL regular since Peyton Krebs in 2020. Stone is 33, Hertl 32, Karlsson 33 - already lost Pietrangelo.

They will probably be good next year - but it won't continue forever.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Interesting though, I wonder would people have preferred the joked about Ihs-Wozniak + 2nd return?

I am on the fence. Ihs-Wozniak is potentially better than any piece we acquired. Yeah we got a 1st, but is that late 1st better than Ihs-Wozniak? I really don't know.

I'd rather have the first. Reasons:
- I'd like to have some upside for a higher pick, even if it's unlikely with Vegas. There is a lot of randomness in hockey and good teams have bad years out of the blue
- I'd like to give our scouts another bullet to get the guy they want.
- I don't think Wozniak is particularly better than most mid 2nd round picks
- Another 1st gives Conroy some options to move around the draft, including moving up if an opportunity presents itself.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

These are the same things some posters were saying with the hanifin unprotected pick. How’s that looking now? The odds of Vegas falling off a cliff next year are slim. Just like the odds of Vegas falling off a cliff this year to help return in hanifin trade.

Any time people were talking about 1st round picks it was never going to be a pick in the top 25.