[Trade] Andersson (50% retained) to Vegas for 27 1st, cond 28 2nd, Whitecloud, Wiebe

[SuperMatt18]

Vegas knows what they are doing here though.

Like Dino7c said - they hypothetically paid this for one run because they could have had him in the offseason for nothing.

Leafs were going to charge Vegas with tampering and wouldn't be surprised if there was a similar discussion here, Vegas was indirectly tampering here again for sure.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Here's another reason why I really don't like this trade. I hate trading for picks multiple years down the road. That feeds into the Murray Edwards narrative that rebiggles take too long and put the club in endless loop of being bad (see Buffalo). What we traded for was a 1st round pick that is two drafts away. The conditional second rounder is three drafts away. Vegas is playing with our draft capital until it is used, so we are not seeing primary return on this deal for at least two or more years. That's not good when you're hoping to build critical mass through the draft.

I think it is pretty common to consider a top 10 pick to be a D+1 to D+2 arrival to the team, and then another year or two before they really start contributing as hoped. A mid to late first rounder is probably a D+2 to D+3 for arrival and the two years of development as well. Anything outside of the first round is usually a D+3 or greater arrival (the new dynamic of access to college could delay arrivals in systems to now as much as D+5) and then the development time for making the jump to the club of a year or more. We can then start to see where players can potentially get plugged into the roster and depth chart. So, with the Vegas picks we just received, they are two drafts or more away, and then likely four or five years away from cracking the team. We just moved Andersson for a player that won't likely be useful until 2030-something if at all. That's the hard pill to swallow. This team will be bottoming out just about time the new barn opens rather than having a mess of top picks filtering into the lineup. I can understand Edwards' trepedation when you start looking at the calendar and when these draft picks turn into something. I hate long-term futures trades for that part and Vegas hornswaggled Conroy into two deals like that.

I actually don't mind that so much... I hate the trade but I don't have an issue with pushing the draft capital back a few years. I mean... by the time those picks will be able to contribute we'll hopefully be contending and if we're contending then we're probably going to be up against the cap so the prospect of having those picks be cost-controlled talent coming in at a time where we'll need cost controlled talent is kind of appealing.

I hate the trade because I hate Vegas... not the city, I love the city... I hate the team. I hate that the picks have conditions, I hate that we have Whitecloud coming back and that you just know we're not going to maximize value on him by parlaying him into anything good instead of using him to stay mid, I hate that the prospect is really fringe. Feels like everything coming back has something ####ty about it. I never want the Flames to trade with Vegas ever again.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Royle9

The point is the difference in value between the 30th pick and the 35th pick is not much at all.

Every team CGY was negotiating with had to include a 1st and there were other teams with far better odds of that first being in the 15-20 range than 25-32nd.

The value between 15th pick and 30th pick is substantial, like almost never gets moved levels of capital.

I’d much rather the 15th pick than 30th & 60th but maybe it’s just me.


Now if they flipped White cloud into a late 1st or early 2nd+ then it’s a home run, but that remains to be seen and probably unlikely.

More important than the significant gap in value between a 15-20 range pick and a 25-32?

The difference between picks 1-4 and and 5-14.

Andersson going now, hopefully translates into more losses. Hopefully Kadri and Coleman go next, and sooner rather than later.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

No, not flipping Pachel or Hanley will be the big L.

How much would you expect to get for either Pachal or Hanley? I'm thinking no more than a 3rd for either of them, in all probability. That isn't a very big W if they do it, or a big L if they fail. It would be nice to trade one or both of them, but I won't be cussing out the Flames' front office if they don't.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

How much would you expect to get for either Pachal or Hanley? I'm thinking no more than a 3rd for either of them, in all probability. That isn't a very big W if they do it, or a big L if they fail. It would be nice to trade one or both of them, but I won't be cussing out the Flames' front office if they don't.

Both are Treliving Specials.

3rd + 6th or 4th + 5th.

[GioforPM]

Vegas may be confident Ras signs with them but it’s still a risk for them. He might get there and dislike the management, or his spouse might not like the city, etc. They will have to overpay to get him to give up UFA status.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by RedHawk12

Firstly, a guy like Whitecloud is only worth anything if a team covets and targets him. Otherwise, I think he's closer to waiver fodder than trade deadline asset. If he does get flipped his year, I think a team that targets him maybe offers a 3rd?

Secondly, I honestly think Conroy liked this player and targeted him, and I honestly don't think he will even be traded for anything.

The hopes of someone offering a 1st for this guy is pure fantasy.

So you think other teams wouldn't be interested, but Conroy covets him.

Do some of you even think about, or read, what you post?

[Rhett44]

The more I think about, Vegas being the team to get him sours me the most.

I would have been happier for sure if we traded for just a 1st from Boston or Detroit lol.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

How much would you expect to get for either Pachal or Hanley? I'm thinking no more than a 3rd for either of them, in all probability. That isn't a very big W if they do it, or a big L if they fail. It would be nice to trade one or both of them, but I won't be cussing out the Flames' front office if they don't.

Thing is, they can now trade a few guys both this year and next.

[SuperMatt18]

One reason I don't like this for Vegas is that IMO Hanifin-Andersson were never very effective against Edmonton.

Vegas used to be able to beat Edmonton because of their big mobile defense, with no Pietrangelo, Hague, or Whitecloud that's gone now.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

How much would you expect to get for either Pachal or Hanley? I'm thinking no more than a 3rd for either of them, in all probability. That isn't a very big W if they do it, or a big L if they fail. It would be nice to trade one or both of them, but I won't be cussing out the Flames' front office if they don't.

Take what you can get as far as a draft pick is concerned. Give the scouts more bullets. If you can move them for a 3rd, a 4th, and a 7th, I would view that as more of a win than moving Whitecloud for a 2nd and then relying on those two to be part of our blueline.

[Royle9]

Originally Posted by dino7c

All the teams he wouldnt sign with?

Other teams were willing to give up 1sts, but not much in the ++ department, Craig said it himself that a 1st was part of every deal he was making regardless of extension or not.

Again, I don’t fault you for your opinion on it and I’m not mad or angry that you’re okay with the return.
I just don’t agree with it being that good unless they flip Whitecloud.

It’s really CGY’s fault for letting it get to this type of situation again 2 years after the Hanifin fiasco. They were banking on good faith conversations and I was told both sides were amicable about it until the 11th hour when he refused to talk extensions with “anyone” but when he signs in VGK in a few weeks we’ll know that wasn’t true either.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The more I think about, Vegas being the team to get him sours me the most.

I would have been happier for sure if we traded for just a 1st from Boston or Detroit lol.

Convenient it worked out this way to keep the schtick alive then.

We all win!

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

The more I think about, Vegas being the team to get him sours me the most.

See, part of where we differ is that I don't consult my emotions in assessing the return. If the Flames traded Andersson to Hell, I wouldn't mind from the Flames' point of view as long as Satan was sending back the best assets. I still wouldn't put Satan on my Christmas-card list either way.

Vegas was the only team willing to offer a 1st, a 2nd, and a roster player for a pure rental. As I said earlier, they could just wait till July and sign Andersson for nothing but cash, so all they gained by moving those assets was to have him for the rest of this season. I'll take those assets from any team, no matter how much I like or hate them.

[RedHawk12]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So you think other teams wouldn't be interested, but Conroy covets him.

Do some of you even think about, or read, what you post?

I said a team that covets him would probably pay a 3rd. Did you read or think about what I wrote?

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

There is absolutely no way a 1st-round pick can be any later than 32nd overall. A 2nd could be as low as 64th. Likewise, a 3rd could be as low as 96th. For '27 and '28 picks, we have no way of knowing. It would take phenomenal luck to trade for a 2nd in '28 and have it turn out to be the 33rd overall pick, and that is the very best-case scenario.

Denigrating the value of the return this way is silly.

32nd is basically 40th.

[Geeoff]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Here's another reason why I really don't like this trade. I hate trading for picks multiple years down the road. That feeds into the Murray Edwards narrative that rebiggles take too long and put the club in endless loop of being bad (see Buffalo). What we traded for was a 1st round pick that is two drafts away. The conditional second rounder is three drafts away. Vegas is playing with our draft capital until it is used, so we are not seeing primary return on this deal for at least two or more years. That's not good when you're hoping to build critical mass through the draft.

I think it is pretty common to consider a top 10 pick to be a D+1 to D+2 arrival to the team, and then another year or two before they really start contributing as hoped. A mid to late first rounder is probably a D+2 to D+3 for arrival and the two years of development as well. Anything outside of the first round is usually a D+3 or greater arrival (the new dynamic of access to college could delay arrivals in systems to now as much as D+5) and then the development time for making the jump to the club of a year or more. We can then start to see where players can potentially get plugged into the roster and depth chart. So, with the Vegas picks we just received, they are two drafts or more away, and then likely four or five years away from cracking the team. We just moved Andersson for a player that won't likely be useful until 2030-something if at all. That's the hard pill to swallow. This team will be bottoming out just about time the new barn opens rather than having a mess of top picks filtering into the lineup. I can understand Edwards' trepedation when you start looking at the calendar and when these draft picks turn into something. I hate long-term futures trades for that part and Vegas hornswaggled Conroy into two deals like that.

There is a limited number of contracts you can sign and a limited amount of space on the AHL team, and so it may not be in the best interest to try and develop 15 players from the 2026 draft or whatever

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I think most of it comes from the fact that it's Vegas, and the baggage of the Hanifin issue.

To Vancouver: Lindholm
To Calgary: Kuzmenko, 1st, Conditional 4th, Jurmo, Brzustewicz

To Vegas: Andersson
To Calgary: Whitecloud, 1st, 2nd (possible 1st), Wiebe

Whitecloud > Kuzmenko + Jurmo
2nd (possible 1st) + Wiebe >= Conditional 4th + Brzustewicz
1st = 1st

Lindholm's deal is heralded as a big win, but this isn't?

I don't track it. I think both deals are pretty equal.

To me, this ties the Lindholm trade as Conroy's 2nd best trade (Markstrom being the best).

I 100% understand some of the optics of it being Vegas though, but outside of that...I'm fine with this trade.

Was going to post the same thing.

When you line up the returns, this trade and the Lindholm trade are pretty even> It tilts one way or the other depending on your views of Brzustewicz and Whitecloud, but Brz has to be considered at the time, not now (and there were a LOT of people whining then that he was a 3rd round pick and would never make it).

Overall, IMO, the Lindholm return is marginally better, because I am a big Brz fan. But people are vastly under-rating Whitecloud, and once he is traded (whether this year or next), this trade will be seen as being as good, or better, than the Lindholm trade

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

Exactly, whitecloud does nothing exceptional and will not be a difference maker, so why is he here? Hopefully they can trade him for whatever Conroy can scrounge up so we keep Brzu, Parekh, Kuz and other emerging guys up. That would be better than using a spot for a placeholder like Whitecloud.

I think he is going to quickly become a fan favourite. He is a really solid shutdown tough D man.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

lol solovyov has entered the chat?

What about Jason Morgan - Jason Fricken Morgan!