🚨 The Zayne Parekh show has arrived 🚨

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

*gestures demonstratively in all directions*

This organization is not good at developing skill, and the evidence is everywhere. The only skill players with success that were drafted and developed by the Flames in the last 30 years are Tkachuk, Monahan, and Gaudreau. Two of those were 6th overall picks. Other organizations find skill outside of the top 10 in the draft and nurture it. Are we just unlucky in that we haven't done that outside of Gaudreau in the last 25 years? Or is something else going on?

The arrogance I see comes in several forms. The most obvious is the dogged resistance to admitting a team is bad and that it needs to be rebuilt. We saw that in the Iginla era, clinging to a declining team and refusing to trade declining assets until they had declined so far that they weren't worth anything. The jury is still out on what we're doing right now, as evidenced by the hundreds of pages of debate on this topic. As I've said above it's an arrogance that there is a "right way of doing things" that does not permit a tear it down rebuild and that seems to me to be a way of differentiating ourselves from the Oilers.

Watch this space as to whether this arrogance will get in the way of developing Parekh. Kent Wilson sees this potential failure. So do I. He was consistently the best player on the ice in the WJC. The talent is there. I'm not writing this project off, it is way too early. But if Parekh fails to develop into an NHLer, the failure will be on the Flames. And I've watched this team long enough to be entitled to some significant doubt that we will get this right, because we get almost nothing right.

Ok so this is just someone carting around the 30 years of baggage, not actual evidence.
You provide examples of where the Flames have developed skilled players but they don't count because reasons.
You ignore other examples such as Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane.

Though I'm not sure how relevant it is to look back, unless you think management has had the same approach across the decades. Maybe that's part of your premise.

Apart from Sam, who are the other skilled prospects you think the Flames mishandled?

Beyond that it just seems like you don't have much faith in the organization, and you apply that lack of faith across all dimensions of it. Which is fair. They've lost your trust. That's on them.

But that still doesn't equate to a lot of evidence that supports what are you saying.

[Big Erned Nevergivn]

They need to treat Parekh, like they did with Johnny 15 years ago. You gotta give him all the opportunity, and change the way the team plays while he is on the ice to compliment his gamebreaking skill set. The flames always played different when he was on the ice, there was leash to make low% plays, hold onto on the rush even when there was no easy play, not resort to dump and forecheck etc. We built the power play around him, we let him cheat in the D zone etc.

Of course it's different based on FWD vs. Defense, but they need employ a similar strategy.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Big Erned Nevergivn

They need to treat Parekh, like they did with Johnny 15 years ago. You gotta give him all the opportunity, and change the way the team plays while he is on the ice to compliment his gamebreaking skill set. The flames always played different when he was on the ice, there was leash to make low% plays, hold onto on the rush even when there was no easy play, not resort to dump and forecheck etc. We built the power play around him, we let him cheat in the D zone etc.

Of course it's different based on FWD vs. Defense, but they need employ a similar strategy.

I don't think Huska knows how to coach a different system. It is just low event and boring trap style hockey.

I don't think Zayne will thrive except on the pp until we bring a new coach in.

[MrButtons]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I don't think Huska knows how to coach a different system. It is just low event and boring trap style hockey.

I don't think Zayne will thrive except on the pp until we bring a new coach in.

have you seen the powerplay? This team cant play skilled hockey when the other team is a man down, let alone 5 on 5. Like, I get it, but coaches build systems around their players. I'm too lazy to go searching but I know a poster broke down Huska's previous coaching gigs in terms of scoring and their rank in the league, and it wasn't dead last.

You want a tank so badly, to do that the team is gonna be bad. Hire another coach and we start winning, will you then hate the coach for not being team tank? Like i get it brotha but sometimes I think you just like being mad at things

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok so this is just someone carting around the 30 years of baggage, not actual evidence.
You provide examples of where the Flames have developed skilled players but they don't count because reasons.
You ignore other examples such as Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane.

Though I'm not sure how relevant it is to look back, unless you think management has had the same approach across the decades. Maybe that's part of your premise.

Apart from Sam, who are the other skilled prospects you think the Flames mishandled?

Beyond that it just seems like you don't have much faith in the organization, and you apply that lack of faith across all dimensions of it. Which is fair. They've lost your trust. That's on them.

But that still doesn't equate to a lot of evidence that supports what are you saying.

As soon as someone starts treating Gaudreau like a footnote they can just dismiss for the sake of their argument you know they’ve completely lost the plot.

You can argue they’ve over-prioritized tough, western Canadian type players over the past 25 years. Lots of evidence of that. But that’s clearly shifted. And unless you want to spit on his legacy and pretend he doesn’t exist, you can’t dismiss Gaudreau of a shining example that the Flames can and have found skill outside the top 10, and done an incredible job nurturing it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

have you seen the powerplay? This team cant play skilled hockey when the other team is a man down, let alone 5 on 5. Like, I get it, but coaches build systems around their players. I'm too lazy to go searching but I know a poster broke down Huska's previous coaching gigs in terms of scoring and their rank in the league, and it wasn't dead last.

You want a tank so badly, to do that the team is gonna be bad. Hire another coach and we start winning, will you then hate the coach for not being team tank? Like i get it brotha but sometimes I think you just like being mad at things

I’ve done it. Huska has several examples before his NHL career where he had some of the top scoring teams, even without all star skill guys that would make that kind of thing automatic.

He appears (to me) a coach that can make the most out of what he has and knows how to nurture players.

[Enoch Root]

Been a coach for 18 years - 12 of them at the professional level. Has been promoted 3 times over that period (from Jr, to AHL, to assistant coach in NHL, to head coach).

Flames fans: "team is bad, therefore coach is one-dimensional!"

It is embarrassingly simplistic and naïve.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

have you seen the powerplay? This team cant play skilled hockey when the other team is a man down, let alone 5 on 5. Like, I get it, but coaches build systems around their players. I'm too lazy to go searching but I know a poster broke down Huska's previous coaching gigs in terms of scoring and their rank in the league, and it wasn't dead last.

You want a tank so badly, to do that the team is gonna be bad. Hire another coach and we start winning, will you then hate the coach for not being team tank? Like i get it brotha but sometimes I think you just like being mad at things

No, I do want to tank and I'm fine with Huska being the coach this year.

I just don't think Zayne will thrive ever under Huska. Just my opinion, I am not mad. I am not sure he is ready for the NHL yet anyways and would be better in the ahl, but the stupid rules prevent that.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

It's amazing to still see some people act like this is a good/decent team being neutered by a trap-employing coach.

Just throwing this out there: maybe the team looks bad because..........it's bad? Crazy, I know.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

No, I do want to tank and I'm fine with Huska being the coach this year.

I just don't think Zayne will thrive ever under Huska. Just my opinion, I am not mad. I am not sure he is ready for the NHL yet anyways and would be better in the ahl, but the stupid rules prevent that.

Zayne is not ready for the NHL and will not look ready for another year or two, maybe. He's not good enough defensively yet, and especially not ready physically yet. He should not be with the Flames, but as you say the rule preventing him from being in the AHL is ridiculous.

It still won't stop some people from blaming Huska for Zayne's usage, minutes, scratches, etc. When really he shouldn't be with the Flames at all right now, and not Huska's fault at all. He's not ready. I hope he does well and proves me wrong but I really doubt it.

[VilleN]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

It's amazing to still see some people act like this is a good/decent team being neutered by a trap-employing coach.

Just throwing this out there: maybe the team looks bad because..........it's bad? Crazy, I know.

Yeah, on paper I can't think of a less offensively talented team. When Blake Coleman (a 3rd liner on Tampa in his prime) is your leading goal scorer - you just might be a bad team. Huska has somehow managed to have this team perform at a merely mediocre (last year) to slightly below mediocre this year... We should be at the bottom of the standings last year and this year based on our personnel.

[Five-hole]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Ok so this is just someone carting around the 30 years of baggage, not actual evidence.
You provide examples of where the Flames have developed skilled players but they don't count because reasons.
You ignore other examples such as Rasmus Andersson, Andrew Mangiapane.

Though I'm not sure how relevant it is to look back, unless you think management has had the same approach across the decades. Maybe that's part of your premise.

Apart from Sam, who are the other skilled prospects you think the Flames mishandled?

Beyond that it just seems like you don't have much faith in the organization, and you apply that lack of faith across all dimensions of it. Which is fair. They've lost your trust. That's on them.

But that still doesn't equate to a lot of evidence that supports what are you saying.

This is kind of the opposite of the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". What skill players have the Flames developed in this millenium?

I've discounted Tkachuk and Monahan because they were sixth overall picks, and both of whom had strong 200 ft games before they were drafted. If you want to give the Flames credit for developing Tkachuk and Monahan, go ahead. I think they would have developed anywhere and we simply didn't get in the way. That they turned into top line forwards is credit to them and not to the Flames, and I have that general view of top 10 picks across the league in any org. There are exceptions.

Where are the players who had some skill with some holes in their game that we turned into top 6 forwards or top 4 D? Outside of Gaudreau, who is there? You mentioned Andersson and Mangiapane. Mangiapane had one outlier season and is otherwise a career 20-20 guy at best. Bringing him up in my view is evidence of how much we have to scrape hte bottom of the barrel here. Andersson is a great player who exceeded his draft position, and in conjunction with Gaudreau are probably the only two examples since 2000 where the Flames hit a home run.

Is there anybody else? In literally 25 years? Where are our Pastrnaks? Ahos? Robertsons? Kucherovs? Kaprizovs? Johnstons? Datsyuks?

My view is this organization has been consistently mediocre to poor in almost every area for decades. I have some optimism because the drafting looks pretty good right now and we have been graduating prospects from the minors. But none of those prospects are high-skilled players (Coronato an exception, but again high draft pedigree).

Zayne is the most skilled prospect we've had aside from Gaudreau in 30 years, and maybe even moreso than Gaudreau. Are we going to do everything we can to make that succeed or are we going to get in the way?

As I said I haven't written this off but I am wary, and for the reasons above, I believe I have the right to be.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

It's amazing to still see some people act like this is a good/decent team being neutered by a trap-employing coach.

Just throwing this out there: maybe the team looks bad because..........it's bad? Crazy, I know.

If you're referring to my post, I agree with you that this is not a good team.

I think both things are true: the team lacks goal scoring talent, and the coach plays a system that prevents them from scoring more goals and is very boring to watch.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

As soon as someone starts treating Gaudreau like a footnote they can just dismiss for the sake of their argument you know they’ve completely lost the plot.

You can argue they’ve over-prioritized tough, western Canadian type players over the past 25 years. Lots of evidence of that. But that’s clearly shifted. And unless you want to spit on his legacy and pretend he doesn’t exist, you can’t dismiss Gaudreau of a shining example that the Flames can and have found skill outside the top 10, and done an incredible job nurturing it.

Drafting under Sutter was awful, and gave little value to skill.

And then under BT the issue was the deficit of picks.

What we see now is the pipeline has more skilled prospects than in a very long time: Parekh, Gridin, Reschney, Potter, The Stonk, Basha, Mews, Suniev, and on and on. The team has prioritized skill in its drafting under Conroy, therefore it is, without question, critical that they also can develop that skill.

And to this point we don't know if they can or not because there hasn't been enough time.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

This is kind of the opposite of the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". What skill players have the Flames developed in this millenium?

I've discounted Tkachuk and Monahan because they were sixth overall picks, and both of whom had strong 200 ft games before they were drafted. If you want to give the Flames credit for developing Tkachuk and Monahan, go ahead. I think they would have developed anywhere and we simply didn't get in the way. That they turned into top line forwards is credit to them and not to the Flames, and I have that general view of top 10 picks across the league in any org. There are exceptions.

Where are the players who had some skill with some holes in their game that we turned into top 6 forwards or top 4 D? Outside of Gaudreau, who is there? You mentioned Andersson and Mangiapane. Mangiapane had one outlier season and is otherwise a career 20-20 guy at best. Bringing him up in my view is evidence of how much we have to scrape hte bottom of the barrel here. Andersson is a great player who exceeded his draft position, and in conjunction with Gaudreau are probably the only two examples since 2000 where the Flames hit a home run.

Is there anybody else? In literally 25 years? Where are our Pastrnaks? Ahos? Robertsons? Kucherovs? Kaprizovs? Johnstons? Datsyuks?

My view is this organization has been consistently mediocre to poor in almost every area for decades. I have some optimism because the drafting looks pretty good right now and we have been graduating prospects from the minors. But none of those prospects are high-skilled players (Coronato an exception, but again high draft pedigree).

Zayne is the most skilled prospect we've had aside from Gaudreau in 30 years, and maybe even moreso than Gaudreau. Are we going to do everything we can to make that succeed or are we going to get in the way?

As I said I haven't written this off but I am wary, and for the reasons above, I believe I have the right to be.

Jarome Iginla was not drafted by the Flames but he was certainly developed by them.

The question, I suppose is what player do you think was actually stifled and would have been some great offensive player but for the Flames "arrogance"?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

This is kind of the opposite of the "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". What skill players have the Flames developed in this millenium?

I've discounted Tkachuk and Monahan because they were sixth overall picks, and both of whom had strong 200 ft games before they were drafted. If you want to give the Flames credit for developing Tkachuk and Monahan, go ahead. I think they would have developed anywhere and we simply didn't get in the way. That they turned into top line forwards is credit to them and not to the Flames, and I have that general view of top 10 picks across the league in any org. There are exceptions.

Where are the players who had some skill with some holes in their game that we turned into top 6 forwards or top 4 D? Outside of Gaudreau, who is there? You mentioned Andersson and Mangiapane. Mangiapane had one outlier season and is otherwise a career 20-20 guy at best. Bringing him up in my view is evidence of how much we have to scrape hte bottom of the barrel here. Andersson is a great player who exceeded his draft position, and in conjunction with Gaudreau are probably the only two examples since 2000 where the Flames hit a home run.

Is there anybody else? In literally 25 years? Where are our Pastrnaks? Ahos? Robertsons? Kucherovs? Kaprizovs? Johnstons? Datsyuks?

My view is this organization has been consistently mediocre to poor in almost every area for decades. I have some optimism because the drafting looks pretty good right now and we have been graduating prospects from the minors. But none of those prospects are high-skilled players (Coronato an exception, but again high draft pedigree).

Zayne is the most skilled prospect we've had aside from Gaudreau in 30 years, and maybe even moreso than Gaudreau. Are we going to do everything we can to make that succeed or are we going to get in the way?

As I said I haven't written this off but I am wary, and for the reasons above, I believe I have the right to be.

Tkachuk and Monahan were not complete players by any stretch. Nor was Johnny. They all improved as pros including when on the Flames roster. To not give the organization some credit for that strongly suggests you are applying a dose of bias in your analysis.

As I just posted, the problem for the Flames was a lack of talent in the pipeline for a lot of the last couple decades because of poor drafting (Sutter) and pick deficit (BT).

I would ask the question I did earlier: what other high skilled prospects, outside of Sam Bennet, do you think the Flames developed poorly?

If there is a pattern of poor development that you suggest it is, we should be able to look back at their drafts and pick out highly skilled guys that either bombed, or moved onto other organizations and found their way.

I will call out one guy: Sven. But we are going back to 2011, so not sure how relevant, but I think Hartley really f'd that kid up.

One could also point to Juuso. I really believe his knee injury de-railed him - he never had the same mobility he did prior to that.

Perhaps there are other examples.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Zayne is not ready for the NHL and will not look ready for another year or two, maybe. He's not good enough defensively yet, and especially not ready physically yet. He should not be with the Flames, but as you say the rule preventing him from being in the AHL is ridiculous.

It still won't stop some people from blaming Huska for Zayne's usage, minutes, scratches, etc. When really he shouldn't be with the Flames at all right now, and not Huska's fault at all. He's not ready. I hope he does well and proves me wrong but I really doubt it.

The guy was just the best player in the world juniors.

Not to be the bearer of bad news but the the most likely scenario for Parekh is that he's never that good defensively and that he's going to be the low end of 'physically ready'. That is what the article is saying - this is a player with deficiencies but he has other extraordinary talents. You need to live with the deficiencies and encourage the extraordinary skill or you are going to waste the opportunity.

[MrButtons]

Didn't Johnny talk about how Sutter making Johnny play a more complete game only made him a better, more effective hockey player?

“I think three years ago maybe I was cheating a little bit more to the offensive side,” said Gaudreau, who tied Nathan MacKinnon for seventh in league scoring that year.

“Obviously, I had a good year points-wise. But I think looking at my game personally, I’ve gotten a lot better in my 200-foot game. I think that was something that was important before the season started.

“I think our line has done a great job not costing our team games in the defensive zone. We maybe had that a little three years ago, but I’ve gotten better in the d-zone.”

I agree you need to give Parekh an opportunity to shine and allow him to be great at what he does best, but to suggest that giving him time to get accustomed to the other aspects of playing D in the show is ruining his development seems like a reach.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Five-hole

Is there anybody else? In literally 25 years? Where are our Pastrnaks? Ahos? Robertsons? Kucherovs? Kaprizovs? Johnstons? Datsyuks?

.

On this, notice you only listed one player for each team because these home run picks are exceedingly rare and independent studies have shown the Flames are amongst the best in finding value relative to the number and value of the picks they have.

The Flames have found and developed Johnny and Dustin Wolf with very late picks.

Boston found Pasta. Next best example is Swayman who was a 4th rounder.
Canes found Aho and do very well with their high quantity of 2nd rounders, to find a guy like Nikishin. Aho was also a 2nd. Slavin was a home run in the 4th round.

Tampa has Kucherov as their example.

Minny has Kaprizov and that's it in terms of amazing value picks, though as a first rounder Boldy was tremendous.

Dallas is the exception, they have established the ability to out draft everyone: Oettinger, Robertson, Wyatt, Hintz, Harley.

But overall the Flames HAVE found top of the roster players both with high picks (Monahan, Tkachuk) and later rounds (Johnny, Wolf, Adam Fox, Rasmus).

You ask where the Flames examples of those high end players are? Right there. They have found them and developed them. Sam Bennet doesn't change that.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by MrButtons

Didn't Johnny talk about how Sutter making Johnny play a more complete game only made him a better, more effective hockey player?



I agree you need to give Parekh an opportunity to shine and allow him to be great at what he does best, but to suggest that giving him time to get accustomed to the other aspects of playing D in the show is ruining his development seems like a reach.

Was Gaudreau really any better or was he just playing on a line that dominated possession so much it didn't matter.