American Politics 4.0 - Orangeyou Glad He’s Back?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Yeah, that article quotes another article, which in turn quotes a textbook, none of which actually say the thing about unanimity in the context of one NATO state attacking another.

But given that the treaty itself explicitly states that an armed attack on a "territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America" is deemed to be enough to trigger Art. 5, I don't see it as at all likely that there would need to be a question put to member states as to whether someone attempting to forcibly annex such territory qualifies as an "armed attack". The treaty wording itself deems it so. There's no room for interpretation.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Article 5 isn't an automatic "make go now" button.


https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2026/0112/1552603-greenland-denmark-united-states-donald-trump-nato-european-union-laws-treaties/

What it does mean is that the US will have declared itself an enemy of NATO, which would most likely result in the collapse of NATO.

You may have notice Trump has completely stopped talking about NATO members boosting their defence spending. I strongly suspect this is because he, Putin, and Xi realized telling your enemy to increase military spending is dumb. The last time I see him mentioning it is way back in June. This was probably the turnaround moment, and between then and now Trump has been convinced to destroy NATO. How do you do that? By going after a territory "no one will defend with force" that belongs to a NATO member.


Putin has wanted NATO destroyed for decades, and he finally found away to make the US do it. The Russians are playing America like a fiddle, and all of MAGA is dancing along.

Do you really believe this? Or is it theatrics?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Do you really believe this? Or is it theatrics?

If you pay attention, it's kinda obvious.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Canada is a different beast. The US attempting to annex Canada would likely trigger a NATO response, but there are lots of other reasons it won't happen.

... I mean maybe just Alberta I guess

All of Canada, likely. But if they get Greenland, what's to stop them from saying "well, we also need Ellesmere Island. Security purposes, you know." etc. etc.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

Do you really believe this? Or is it theatrics?

If you reframe your mind and think, maybe Trump is a Russian asset, it does make a lot of what he does make a lot more sense.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Article 5 isn't an automatic "make go now" button.


https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2026/0112/1552603-greenland-denmark-united-states-donald-trump-nato-european-union-laws-treaties/

What it does mean is that the US will have declared itself an enemy of NATO, which would most likely result in the collapse of NATO.

You may have notice Trump has completely stopped talking about NATO members boosting their defence spending. I strongly suspect this is because he, Putin, and Xi realized telling your enemy to increase military spending is dumb. The last time I see him mentioning it is way back in June. This was probably the turnaround moment, and between then and now Trump has been convinced to destroy NATO. How do you do that? By going after a territory "no one will defend with force" that belongs to a NATO member.


Putin has wanted NATO destroyed for decades, and he finally found away to make the US do it. The Russians are playing America like a fiddle, and all of MAGA is dancing along.

EU has very clearly said that the US attacking Greenland would be the end of NATO.

Although, I think they should just throw the US out of NATO.

I think there's two reasons why Trump hasn't been talking about NATO anymore.

1. He's barely coherent and has probably already forgotten most of what he's said in the last year.

2. Loss of weapons sales is one of Trumps bigger failures to date, as his diplomatic insanity has lead to European purchases of US armaments collapsing while their weapons spending overall is increasing, resulting in huge losses to US manufacturers and the international competition getting a huge boost. And since government level arms deals last for decades, this isn't something the senile monkey can just go back on, or something that will be easily reversible by a different administration.

Now that the US has proven itself an unreliable ally and not even a country you can trust to sell you weapons when you need them, that's just not something you come back from.

This will take decades to fully play out, but the global arms market is about to be significantly restructured. Right now the US arms sector is still benefitting from a lot of orders made before Trump, and from still being the biggest manufacturers in a lot of sectors leaving few options in many areas, but over time they will start losing ground, at least in Europe, which used to be the biggest market for US and is about to go on a massive spending spree.

...this of course will go nicely with the US aligning itself with various dictatorship instead, who will happily become US's new "strategic partners".

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

All of Canada, likely. But if they get Greenland, what's to stop them from saying "well, we also need Ellesmere Island. Security purposes, you know." etc. etc.

There's a military base in Alert, for one thing. Wouldn't take that much to increase presence there from a few people to a few hundred, at which point trying to invade there is no different than any other Canadian soil.

But also, if they did have Greenland already there's no actual additional benefit to Ellesmere really, and nobody including Trump really thinks about it at all so it's not like it would even be good for his ego.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

If you pay attention, it's kinda obvious.

You think the Russians are playing the Americans. Do you think that there is a secret alliance between the two countries?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

There's a military base in Alert, for one thing. Wouldn't take that much to increase presence there from a few people to a few hundred, at which point trying to invade there is no different than any other Canadian soil.

But also, if they did have Greenland already there's no actual additional benefit to Ellesmere really, and nobody including Trump really thinks about it at all so it's not like it would even be good for his ego.

Well, they have a military base in Greenland, and apparently that isn't enough.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

You think the Russians are playing the Americans. Do you think that there is a secret alliance between the two countries?

Do you understand what "playing" means? No, I don't think all of the US government has arranged for a secret alliance. It is obvious though, that Putin knows how easy it is to manipulate Trump, and the greater American public, and beyond that, other countries as well. See Brexit.

Putin realized he didn't need to attack the west directly, he could attack the very democratic institutions that we rely upon. Sow doubt about elections, elected officials, journalists, and you can have the population themselves do most of the damage. It's easy to toss out lies, it's more work to disprove them. So just keep tossing stuff. Eventually you convince talking head morons and politicians of some "truth", and then they continue on undermining democracy.

If you can get someone like Elon Musk to re-tweet every lie you toss out, it then mobilizes an entire platform against the target. Elon's the most useful idiot on Earth right now to a guy like Putin.

All of this are not my thoughts, you can go do your own research on it. Here's one on Brexit to get you started:

https://www.csis.org/blogs/brexit-bi...fluence-brexit

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

There's a military base in Alert, for one thing. Wouldn't take that much to increase presence there from a few people to a few hundred, at which point trying to invade there is no different than any other Canadian soil.

But also, if they did have Greenland already there's no actual additional benefit to Ellesmere really, and nobody including Trump really thinks about it at all so it's not like it would even be good for his ego.

I don't think rational thought or common sense matters. I honestly believe Trump just wants to be the first president in 100 years or so to add large amounts of territory to the country. National security, natural resources, whatever, none of those things are the real reasons. It's all just a prestige thing for him.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

There's a military base in Alert, for one thing. Wouldn't take that much to increase presence there from a few people to a few hundred, at which point trying to invade there is no different than any other Canadian soil.
.

What a ####ty place to dig a firing position

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

You think the Russians are playing the Americans. Do you think that there is a secret alliance between the two countries?

I think Trump is an idiot, do has one dimensional thinking on every topic, and is extremely greedy beyond what any of us could really comprehend. Who believes himself to be very smart and knowledgeable about everything, yet generally stopped updating his priors (to the extent that he ever did) in 1987.

So he thinks that the USSR Russia is a big scary geo-political sparring partner. And he willing to sell basically anyone/anything out for a small perception personal gain.

In this frame it explains basically all of his actions in every situation, and is very easy to seed ideas that any sensible person would understand to have long term deleterious effects to American global hegemony, but all Trumps sees is that he is big manganous man leading the world and getting opportunities personal for it. I think it is very very easy for Russia, and others to seed ideas, that will take route, and I absolutely would be shocked if they are not.

I guarantee you in their hours long private meetings Putin at some point in time, pointed out that Greenland and Canada are basically American territory anyways, and that we are ripping them off by keeping some of the resource revenues. Because Putin's bedtimes fantasies basically include living to 200 years old, and intra-NATO conflict.

[Doctorfever]

So basically you guys think Russia is playing the US the way every country is playing other countries (or trying)?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So basically you guys think Russia is playing the US the way every country is playing other countries (or trying)?

What do you think is happening?

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

So basically you guys think Russia is playing the US the way every country is playing other countries (or trying)?

Yes but, we think they are succeeding in a way nobody else is succeeding. and nobody else allows themselves to be played.

and in no small part, because in Trumps 1987 reference frame, the USSR Russia is still a worthy adversary.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

1st is physical force, so yeah warships

US warship, go fück yourself!

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

Well, they have a military base in Greenland, and apparently that isn't enough.

You have to remember that Trump’s definition of national security includes control of oil and critical minerals. Follow the money.

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

What do you think is happening?

I think countries who are adversaries of the US (namely China and Russia) use misinformation and indirectly fund protests / riots in the US to create unrest.

I think probably lots of countries are doing this or trying to do this to other countries.

It’s a smaller demographic in countries that allow themselves to be played. And they make the news.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I think countries who are adversaries of the US (namely China and Russia) use misinformation and indirectly fund protests / riots in the US to create unrest.

I think probably lots of countries are doing this or trying to do this to other countries.

It’s a smaller demographic in countries that allow themselves to be played. And they make the news.

Examples?