Looking for legal advice - abused friend - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Resolute 14 · 08-07-2007, 03:19 PM

As I have mentioned at various times recently, usually to rant against Facebook, a close friend of mine has had her relationship to her husband come suddenly to an end as a result of him reconnecting with an ex girlfriend of his.

This came as a surprise to her, and for the last six weeks or so, has been completely devastated. Up until very recently, she desperately wanted to fix this relationship, trying repeatedly to have him enter into counselling. He went a couple times with her, but never kept an open mind, so it turned out to be a waste of time.

Despite stating several times that he was leaving, her husband did not actually move out until about five weeks after he told her it was over. During that time, they fought a lot, but she always made it clear that she would rather work it out than simply end the relationship. We believe now that a main driver for this was that he was trying to establish control over her. She was becoming inconvienent, and he might have been hoping that the threat of leaving would snap her in line. That is speculation, however.

He has always been passive aggressive, and there were several times where she was afraid that some his aggression would be turned against her. He did not, fortunately for him, because if it had, I'd be in a jail cell right now.

We have realized that he has some major league narcissistic tendancies, and his childhood was not exactly ideal. This is something he never would tell either my friend, or would tell a counsellor. He has always been manipulative, and generally has a low tolerance of anyone he can't use. Ultimately, I believe I was only tolerated because of my close friendship with her.

That is the background. What I am looking for legal advice on is on what has happened in the last ten days or so.

As my friend finally got tired of the fighting, and was finally starting to accept that he was leaving, she just stopped responding to his prods and pushes. So, he changed his tactics. Instead of arguing, he started to listen. He started to act like he cared what she had to say (while never saying anything himself). We believe that it was more of his manipulation. Keep her on the line, keep her hoping. They were still getting separated, but he was telling her that it was because he wanted time to decide if he could be happy with her. He often said that "maybe we could get back together sometime", with the length of time varying from two months to a year.

My friend, at this time, still desperately wanted to make this relationship work, so grabbed for this chance immediately. She wanted the life she thought she had back so badly that she was getting sick.

During this time, he started telling her he was still attracted to her. He also said that if she didn't sleep with him, he'd find someone else. It was implied that no sex = no chance he stays. Caught in an emotional hole, she gave in. He was also highly reluctant to agree not to sleep around on her while they were separated, and she felt that he put her into a position where she had to keep him sexually satisfied for him to stay.

While he did tell her to say no if she felt she was being used, he most certainly knew what mental and psychological state she was in, and being the manipulative type of person he is, he exerted that to his full advantage.

Fortunately, her parents, myself, and other friends of her have finally convinced her that he was simply using her, and she finally broke all contact with him. We did not know about his blackmail at the time. When she called him over to tell him, he brought over a separaration agreement, with his half signed. We believe that he had done that in the hopes of frightening her back in line. It didn't work.

Shortly after this, she told me what he did at the end. She felt like a fool for giving in to him, and said she knew all along she was being a fool, but that hope was overpowering.

I told her not to blame herself, as he is a guy who simply uses people. He took advantage of her emotional state. In my opinion, this was sexual assault. She is starting to feel the same, and rather than blaming herself, she is starting to focus on how he blackmailed her into having sex with him.

We are of the opinion that this is enough to file for an immediate divorce, without waiting the full year.

But we are wondering if she has a legal recourse against him for his actions.

This post was made with her full knowledge and agreement, and she is fine with revealing background details I have shared. I am sending her the link to this thread as well. She is also looking to speak with a lawyer about all of this, but we wanted to get a wider perspective on what options she has. The advice of anyone with a legal background would be most appreciated.

ken0042 · 08-07-2007, 03:33 PM

I guess in my mind, I don't see it as assault. Was the guy a jerk, from the sounds of things - yes, no doubt.

This is going to sound harsh, so to the friend who's reading this don't take this as anything other than a "just the facts" type of response, but he was basically saying "If you want our relationship to be one of marriage, we shoud have 'Marital relations.'" The fact that he wasn't sincere just makes him a jerk.

If I ask a girl to sleep with me, and she says "only if we go steady"; I say sure let's go steady, sleep with her, then dump her 2 days later- is that assault? Or just me being a jerk?

FireFly · 08-07-2007, 03:34 PM

Well I'm not sure about legal recourse, but I do want to say congratulations to the lady in question for getting out. It's not easy and it certainly isn't easy being alone in this big city, but better to be alone and alive than to lose who you are as a person. You're not alone in your situation and I applaud that you had the courage to get out. And a special nod to Snakeye for sticking with you and helping you through this.

FireFly · 08-07-2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess in my mind, I don't see it as assault. Was the guy a jerk, from the sounds of things - yes, no doubt.

This is going to sound harsh, so to the friend who's reading this don't take this as anything other than a "just the facts" type of response, but he was basically saying "If you want our relationship to be one of marriage, we shoud have 'Marital relations.'" The fact that he wasn't sincere just makes him a jerk.

If I ask a girl to sleep with me, and she says "only if we go steady"; I say sure let's go steady, sleep with her, then dump her 2 days later- is that assault? Or just me being a jerk?

Yeah, no. To an abused person it's a lot different than that. I don't know that you can call it sexual assault, but certainly he's abused her mentally.

Resolute 14 · 08-07-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

If I ask a girl to sleep with me, and she says "only if we go steady"; I say sure let's go steady, sleep with her, then dump her 2 days later- is that assault? Or just me being a jerk?

I do get what you are saying. However the difference is that even though you are lying to her, you are both still on relatively equal footing emotionally.

In this case, she was forced into something under duress, by a man who targetted her weakened emotional state. As she put it to me "he might has well have drugged me."

ken0042 · 08-07-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFly

but certainly he's abused her mentally.

Agreed 100%. And that's why I tried to add the disclaimer to what I was saying- no matter how I tried to say it there was no right way to say it.

And I have to echo the comments that its good she got out, and got her friends involved. Too often people can't take that big step. I think its good to see she's getting on with her life.

Table 5 · 08-07-2007, 03:44 PM

i agree with Ken, as much of a jerk this guy is, there is a limit to where sexual assault begins. If guys couldnt use cunning/half-truths to persuade girls into sleeping with them, half of CP would still be virgins..the other half probably still are regardless.

ken0042 · 08-07-2007, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

In this case, she was forced into something under duress, by a man who targetted her weakened emotional state. As she put it to me "he might has well have drugged me."

On a moral footing; I tend to agree. However the law sees it as something very different to talk somebody into something than to use force (like drugs) to do something.

Here's another way of looking at it- she's now free. Seperated, can start living her life again, probably young so has the best years of her life to live. If she was able to press charges, that would mean an extra 1 to 3 years she now has to deal with this guy. Would that be worth it?

I know sex is more emotional for women than for men (in general), but if it took sleeping with him a couple more times to find out he was indeed a jerk; wasn't that worth it to a certain extent? She can now move on, without ever having to second guess herself- ie "Was it me?"

llama64 · 08-07-2007, 03:55 PM

It does sound like assault, but I think you will have a hard time gathering enough evidence to press any sort of charge. But, advice of this sort should be sought from an experienced lawyer.

For health reasons, I'd suggest getting through whatever seperation is in order and forgetting about it all together. The guy sounds like a sleeze and not worth the additional emotional investment that pursing any sort of legal case would bring. But that's my personal take on things.

blankall · 08-07-2007, 04:13 PM

I would say from these facts there is nothing criminal going on. I think her remedies at this point are largely economic. She could sue for infliction of emotional suffering, but would need to prove a physical disease and that the disease resulted in economic loss. People lie in relationships all the time and the courts are not very excited about getting involved.

Also any kind of court action will mean that she will have to see this guy again and again for years to come.... my advice just cut all ties as quick as possible.

icecube · 08-07-2007, 04:14 PM

No offense but to me this argument of sexual assault is pretty stupid. A person has to take responsibility for their own actions. It's like saying "you made me angry by yelling at me". You made yourself angry. You chose to react to the others persons yelling with the emotion of anger instead of indifference. You allowed the other person to manipulate your feelings whether you're concious of it or not. Once someone grasps this concept they can no longer feel like a victim.

rubecube · 08-07-2007, 04:25 PM

No chance of leagl recourse here as it's pretty much a he said, she said situation. One piece of advice I would give to your friend, judging by the way this sounds, would be to cut all ties as quickly and cleanly as possible. Also, if this does end up getting bogged down in the legal system, she should definitely keep copies of correspondence she receives from him (i.e. emails, text messages, etc), and also to document date, times, notes on significant personal encounters or phone calls with her ex.

fredr123 · 08-07-2007, 04:32 PM

R v Stender

Mr. Stender was shaken up by a breakup with the complainant and quite obsessed with her. He also had a bunch of digital photos taken of the complainant in various stages of undress. In order to secure the deletion of these files, the complainant agreed to have sex with Stender. Afterwards, charges of sexual assault were brought against Stender. At trial, he was acquitted on the basis (I believe) that the complainant consented to the intercourse. At the Ontario Court of Appeal, and upheld at appeal to the SCC, the acquittal was tossed out and the accused was found guilty. The court found that in the circumstances, there was no consent to intercourse within the meaning of s. 273.1 of the Criminal Code.

You could probably draw a parallel between the Stender case and the one your friend is going through. Demonstrating that there was no consent is going to be a sticky situation, as is the case with most sexual assault cases. Lots of dirty laundry is going to be on display.

The best person to talk to about whether there would be any basis for criminal charges would be a police officer or a lawyer who practices in this area. I suspect, however, that what your friend might be after is some sort of financial compensation for the crap she went through. Again, I'm no expert in this area but that may be something that goes towards getting a quicker divorce and, potentiall, a better matrimonial property division or better spousal support.

I_H8_Crawford · 08-07-2007, 04:33 PM

Tell her to get a STD test as well... who knows how many other women he banged while having "marital relations" with her.

rubecube · 08-07-2007, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I_H8_Crawford

Tell her to get a STD test as well... who knows how many other women he banged while having "marital relations" with her.

Good call. I knew a girl who got herpes from her ex because he cheated on her with some broad from Tequilla.

Agamemnon · 08-07-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

We are of the opinion that this is enough to file for an immediate divorce, without waiting the full year.

But we are wondering if she has a legal recourse against him for his actions.

Sorry, that was a long post and I've got a short memory... did he actually sleep with other women while he was married to your friend? I would assume that would be enough to terminate the marriage immediately, and the if infidelity can be proved, can't she take him to the cleaners in the divorce? I think when one partner is unfaithful that screws them over alimony/support-wise, but I'm no lawyer.

RougeUnderoos · 08-07-2007, 04:47 PM

It doesn't sound "criminal" to me. Certainly a scumbag thing to do, but I don't think that's illegal. And the fact that she obviously didn't want him having sex with anyone else doesn't help.

You've only got one life to live. The less time you spend dealing with a character like this, the better off you are.

corporatejay · 08-07-2007, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fredr123

R v Stender

Mr. Stender was shaken up by a breakup with the complainant and quite obsessed with her. He also had a bunch of digital photos taken of the complainant in various stages of undress. In order to secure the deletion of these files, the complainant agreed to have sex with Stender. Afterwards, charges of sexual assault were brought against Stender. At trial, he was acquitted on the basis (I believe) that the complainant consented to the intercourse. At the Ontario Court of Appeal, and upheld at appeal to the SCC, the acquittal was tossed out and the accused was found guilty. The court found that in the circumstances, there was no consent to intercourse within the meaning of s. 273.1 of the Criminal Code.

You could probably draw a parallel between the Stender case and the one your friend is going through. Demonstrating that there was no consent is going to be a sticky situation, as is the case with most sexual assault cases. Lots of dirty laundry is going to be on display.

The best person to talk to about whether there would be any basis for criminal charges would be a police officer or a lawyer who practices in this area. I suspect, however, that what your friend might be after is some sort of financial compensation for the crap she went through. Again, I'm no expert in this area but that may be something that goes towards getting a quicker divorce and, potentiall, a better matrimonial property division or better spousal support.

This is not a legal opinion.

That's a huge stretch, there is very little chance that this case is applicable whatesoever.

Talk to a lawyer, but it is very unlikely there is a criminal charge here, the emotional duress might be a tool to use in the divorce proceedings though.

Bring_Back_Shantz · 08-07-2007, 04:57 PM

Yeah, I hate to sound like a jerk here, but it seems to me like the guy (Although I agree that he is a world class Jerk) would have a pretty rock solid arguement, in that he could claim that having sex is an expected part of a marriage, and that telling his wife that the only way he would stay with her is if she had sex with him, is a reasonable request. Now, I think it's pretty clear that he had no intention of staying with her, and that he was probably taking advantage of her, but, I doubt what he was doing could be classified as criminal.

That all being said, guys who do stuff like this really do deserve to have unfortunate run in's with large fast moving objects.

Slava · 08-07-2007, 04:59 PM

I'm not a lawyer at all, but if I was one I would argue that the Stender case is a direct parallel...how can you prove/disprove the consent? In a criminal case its a higher burden of proof than a civil case, and even in that arena there is not much to go on here.

I feel bad for this girl, but I doubt that she has any recourse legally.