Flames will not succeed with Murray Edwards

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by devo22

they traded a pending UFA, a tweener and a 2nd for a pair of 24 and 25 year old forwards. It's much more of a "rebuild" type trade than a "go for it" type trade.

Which other notable pending UFAs were there to make a "rebuild" type trade? Vladar? Sure, I guess.

I said re-tool though. Which is exactly what those trades were. They're trying to improve immediately, adding some third liners to the team. Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, Miromanov, are all below average players who improve you marginally. But just enough is good enough for the Flames if it sneaks you into 8th place.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Hackey

I said re-tool though. Which is exactly what those trades were. They're trying to improve immediately, adding some third liners to the team. Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, Miromanov, are all below average players who improve you marginally. But just enough is good enough for the Flames if it sneaks you into 8th place.

Lol Miro came with an unprotected first

[Ped]

Originally Posted by Hackey

Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, Miromanov, are all below average players who improve you marginally.

How do below average players improve you?

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Ped

How do below average players improve you?

The Flames did not see them as below average players.

Why trade a 2nd round pick for them otherwise?

But these were retool players. Not rebuild players.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Ped

How do below average players improve you?

Well, by being the worst. Or second worst, technically, as the Flames are in 31st.

There is lots of room between very far below average (where the Flames are) and average, where they are so bad that even ‘below average’ players are an improvement

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The Flames did not see them as below average players.

Why trade a 2nd round pick for them otherwise?

But these were retool players. Not rebuild players.

Not every rebuild player is someone your team drafts.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

The Flames did not see them as below average players.

Why trade a 2nd round pick for them otherwise?

But these were retool players. Not rebuild players.

Frost Farrabee trade were asset management trades. Additionally they gave the Flames players in the right age group with an eye on the future knowing some vets would be leaving.

At the end of the day Kuzmenko wasn't going to give the Flames a lot. Philly only got a 3rd.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

But it was reported we had really good offers for Andersson and Kadri at least years deadline.

I remember it being the opposite for Andersson. That the offers weren't worth considering not only for him but the UFAs. I can't remember if it was anyone with sources on here who said it, Twitter, or both. But I remember hearing it.

As for Kadri I think Royal9 said it never got to an actual offer with Colorado but he and/or his source wondered how good it could have been considering what they paid for Nelson.

[Rhett44]

Originally Posted by Inferno

I remember it being the opposite for Andersson. That the offers weren't worth considering not only for him but the UFAs. I can't remember if it was anyone with sources on here who said it, Twitter, or both. But I remember hearing it.

As for Kadri I think Royal9 said it never got to an actual offer with Colorado but he and/or his source wondered how good it could have been considering what they paid for Nelson.

I believe it was mentioned last year we had a better offer than the one Colorado gave for Nelson, and that Kadri likely would have waived because it was Colorado.

But in Flames fashion we needed to try to sneak in for an 8 day playoff run.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I believe it was mentioned last year we had a better offer than the one Colorado gave for Nelson, and that Kadri likely would have waived because it was Colorado.

I think that was just assumptions because he used to play there. If his "east but not south" preference is true it probably was the case back then too.

[ComixZone]

Conroy didn't make his players available last year - so as far to strength of offers, I'm not so sure Conroy ever received any?

[Ashes]

This time in the Flames lifecycle kind of reminds me of Colorado when they finally pulled the plug on the old core and traded O'Reilly and Duchene when it was clear they needed a new direction. The guys they got back were pillars for their future cup run, and "helped" them draft higher in the short-term. This is what the Flames need to be doing with Kadri/Coleman (I think Andersson is gone for sure already).

For reference, here's the trade tree from what Colorado got for their vet's at the time:

O’Reilly trade: Zadorov, Grigorenko, Compher + the pick that turned into A.J. Greer (after a trade-down).

Duchene trade: Girard, Kamenev, Bowers, Hammond, (1st Round Pick), (3rd Round Pick) that became Bowen Byram and Matthew Stienburg. Plus a second-rounder that was later flipped as part of further moves.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I believe it was mentioned last year we had a better offer than the one Colorado gave for Nelson, and that Kadri likely would have waived because it was Colorado.



But in Flames fashion we needed to try to sneak in for an 8 day playoff run.

you're just going off assumptions. Could have been a better offer, could have waived. Kadri had a full NMC, and by all accounts seemed happy to be in Calgary.

As for the second part, the team absolutely deserved the chance and would have made the dance if not for an insane Blues winning streak. With no pressing business (no pending UFAs) and no incentive to tank for a better pick (due to Trelivings trades), Conroy was more than right to give them this chance. And it's not like he gave up anything for rentals either, he just stood pat. He certainly didn't miss a golden opportunity that will never come again. Andersson will fetch a really good return, and Kadri is easier to move with a limited NTC.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I believe it was mentioned last year we had a better offer than the one Colorado gave for Nelson, and that Kadri likely would have waived because it was Colorado.

But in Flames fashion we needed to try to sneak in for an 8 day playoff run.

By all accounts, both in the media and on here, Kadri had zero interest in waiving last year. Get over it.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

I believe it was mentioned last year we had a better offer than the one Colorado gave for Nelson, and that Kadri likely would have waived because it was Colorado.

But in Flames fashion we needed to try to sneak in for an 8 day playoff run.

Don’t recall anybody saying either of those things myself. Certainly don’t remember anyone saying Kadri would have waived. But we probably should have used the approach you advocated for for 8 months and just yelled and screamed at Kadri every day to waive his contractual rights, that probably would have worked if we had a huge offer on the table.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Hackey

95% of the rebuild type moves have been forced on them. UFAs and trade requests. Any of the slightly tougher decisions have been avoided. Last year's deadline they preferred going for it than actually trying to make moves for the future. They're still holding onto guys that could be traded. They've made moves for roster guys like Sharangovich, Frost, Farabee, Miromanov. Those are retool moves. They likely haven't said anything about a rebuild because a true rebuild isn't their priority and will only happen if it's forced on them due to the performance of the team.

Not spending money on free agents is a decision.
Not adding at the deadline is a decision.
Not going beyond 5 years and $8M for Andersson is a decision.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

Who knows what the offers will be this year. But it was reported we had really good offers for Andersson and Kadri at least years deadline. But we said no to these deals, because we wanted to try to make a playoff run.

That is something a rebuilding team wouldn't do. So it is kind of tough to make an argument they have been rebuilding when events like that happened.

I think he said no to Andersson proposals because he thought the value would be better later.

With Andersson's season to date he very well could be right.

You like the media opinion ... both Steinberg and Francis on 960 on Thursday said Andersson's value is ticking higher

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Imagine operating your business on eggshells out of a paralyzing fear that a portion of current STHs will disagree with that message.

How are they STHs generating that level of disposable income if they can't read between the lines. They must recognize what's actually going on vs what's being said, no?

As for casual fans, I dont think the level of engagement around the city has been anything to write home about in recent years given the state of the team. I somehow doubt Huberdeau jerseys are flying off of shelves right now.

I doubt there is much to lose in that department with an admission of the rebuild.

The problem is the messaging. Defensive old men in front of microphones isnt helping to sell anything to prospective fans. Talk about high end players. Hammer on names like McKenna and Verhoeff! As well as current prospects having success.

The varying comments on the direction of the team just comes across like incompetence. If they remind people of the upside of filling the cupboards instead of just playing the denial game in the face of conflicting evidence, they'll instill confidence in people watching.

Trying to please literally every segment of the fanbase by not committing to any official narrative just seems like a pathetic way to run an organization that we supposedly want players and locals to feel pride about.

I was a season ticket holder in the 90s ... the place was empty.

I get having a fear of that as an outcome.

Personally I wouldn't operate that way. I'd make the moves I had to make to make the pain period as short as possible and accept the fact that we may have a revenue hit for two years.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I was a season ticket holder in the 90s ... the place was empty.

I get having a fear of that as an outcome.

Personally I wouldn't operate that way. I'd make the moves I had to make to make the pain period as short as possible and accept the fact that we may have a revenue hit for two years.

This is a very curious situation in my mind.


They are rebuilding without ever announcing a rebuild. If the Flames do end up bottoming-out this season, they can announce a rebuild then, and a large portion of the fanbase will decide that this is where the rebuild starts. If they don't announce it, they can just trot-out the 'unexpected' and 'disappointing season', but then inject a top-end talent onto the roster (plus Wolf - Parekh - Gridin) and sell that to the ticket-buying fan base.


I don't really like the fact that they have come out and stated that this season is 'unexpected' - it seems like a greasy 'used car salesman' move in a way. There are never any promises at the start of a season (none that I have seen anyway), so I guess it is somewhat moot (but feels greasy).


I doubt at this point hat they ever announce a rebuild, regardless if they finish last or not. They are sowing a lot of confusion within the fan base (as we can see even on these boards, where a certain percentage are convinced a rebuild has been underway, and a certain percentage don't seem to be convinced still).


Definitely an interesting way to go about a rebuild. I wonder how the ticket sales have been going so far this season as compared to the last few. I wonder how much of a boost they get next season. From an entertainment and/or winning standpoint, this is the hardest season to stomach really - losing and not being entertaining. Next season should be more entertaining at least, and I assume ticket sales will reflect that. Would be interesting to compare ticket sales in this period vs the ticket sales over the last time the Flames rebuilt.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

This is a very curious situation in my mind.


They are rebuilding without ever announcing a rebuild. If the Flames do end up bottoming-out this season, they can announce a rebuild then, and a large portion of the fanbase will decide that this is where the rebuild starts. If they don't announce it, they can just trot-out the 'unexpected' and 'disappointing season', but then inject a top-end talent onto the roster (plus Wolf - Parekh - Gridin) and sell that to the ticket-buying fan base.


I don't really like the fact that they have come out and stated that this season is 'unexpected' - it seems like a greasy 'used car salesman' move in a way. There are never any promises at the start of a season (none that I have seen anyway), so I guess it is somewhat moot (but feels greasy).


I doubt at this point hat they ever announce a rebuild, regardless if they finish last or not. They are sowing a lot of confusion within the fan base (as we can see even on these boards, where a certain percentage are convinced a rebuild has been underway, and a certain percentage don't seem to be convinced still).


Definitely an interesting way to go about a rebuild. I wonder how the ticket sales have been going so far this season as compared to the last few. I wonder how much of a boost they get next season. From an entertainment and/or winning standpoint, this is the hardest season to stomach really - losing and not being entertaining. Next season should be more entertaining at least, and I assume ticket sales will reflect that. Would be interesting to compare ticket sales in this period vs the ticket sales over the last time the Flames rebuilt.

And if I was to guess as to what the statement would have been if they were injected with truth serum ...

"Frankly we expected to be terrible last year, truly. But then a bunch of vets and Huska's defensive system kept us in it all year and moved us away from the top ten pick we expected. So we left it this year thinking law of averages probably takes us downward, but didn't add because we are clearly in a rebuild/retool window and want to keep the draft capital and not tie ourselves to contracts that will be hard to get rid of when we need the cap space"