[News] The Athletic - NHL Owner Rankings - Murray Edwards 30th

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Do they let them run the teams without any consultation or do they just align?

The reporting suggests Viola is a very hands on owner - he was heavily involved in coach selection etc. But he and Zito are very much aligned. Same with Gagliardi in Dallas. He made them hire Hitchcock, and his right hand Lites has gone public in commenting on player performance.

Vegas' owner apparently attends all scouting meetings and player evaluations. I doubt he is just there to watch.

The Avalanche owner is hands off - except put his son in as President of the team and he is definitely hands-on.

Outside of the Avs owner's son getting the top job with no experience in that role is there any other evidence that they are hands on though? Where is the evidence that waiting for the Walmart fortune to come through does not make you a good President of a NHL franchise?

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

But you have proven to be a ####ing moron multiple times on this forum, despite this fact I don't think it is helpful to point it out.

That’s fair if you think that, but I’ve seen only recently how you’re another one of the ass kissers yourself so if I had to guess your opinion of me is probably influenced by the fact I don’t agree with your hockey takes. I’ve also literally never had a discussion with you before, so you must think about me a lot more than I think about you.

Anyways, cheers.

[dino7c]

Funny the best owners mentioned are all from non hockey markets with no state tax and desirable markets for players

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Outside of the Avs owner's son getting the top job with no experience in that role is there any other evidence that they are hands on though? Where is the evidence that waiting for the Walmart fortune to come through does not make you a good President of a NHL franchise?

I don't think there's a lot of evidence outside that. But it's a pretty big involvement to have your son as the guy in charge.

Here's a fun convo from 9 years ago by Avalanche (and Rams and Nuggets) fans when asked about him by an Arsenal supporter:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ColoradoAva...oenke_for_the/

Predictably a mixed bag ranging from "he's hands off" to "he cheaps out".

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think there's a lot of evidence outside that. But it's a pretty big involvement to have your son as the guy in charge.

Here's a fun convo from 9 years ago by Avalanche (and Rams and Nuggets) fans when asked about him by an Arsenal supporter:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ColoradoAva...oenke_for_the/

Predictably a mixed bag ranging from "he's hands off" to "he cheaps out".

My post was tongue in cheek. Don't know Edwards from a hole in the wall but I doubt he would make the top 10 for meddling owners in the NHL. Conroy came in and said he wanted to rebuild, he appeared to say great have at it. Treliving said he wanted to compete and he appeared to say great have at it. Either he meddles with very malleable opinions on what the team should do or he lets the GM implement their plan.

[dino7c]

Avs owner sucked at owning when they were dead last but hes a good owner now

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

My post was tongue in cheek. Don't know Edwards from a hole in the wall but I doubt he would make the top 10 for meddling owners in the NHL. Conroy came in and said he wanted to rebuild, he appeared to say great have at it. Treliving said he wanted to compete and he appeared to say great have at it. Either he meddles with very malleable opinions on what the team should do or he lets the GM implement their plan.

I think he meddles in a dollars and cents way. Certainly didn't like his Feaster hire. Some of the coaches hired (outside of Sutter) seemed to be cheap options and that may have been driven by money.

I don't think he's avoiding a rebuild for money, but I suspect he's avoiding messaging a rebuild because he thinks it affects ticket sales. I don't think that's right but I don't think the Flames are a strong PR team.

[Harry Lime]

Judging by people I know at CNRL, once he gets an idea in his head, theres not a lot of wiggle room.

That came out harsher and funnier than I intended.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

It’s actually totally ok and should be encouraged to let people know what you think of them in a positive or negative light. When you have multiple people telling you that you come across as an ass kisser maybe (with some self awareness) you could look inward and say “hmmm maybe I am, I should work on that”.

You can’t beat up on someone with facts when the person is fundamentally flawed. Like trying to explain how Knies is better than Kadri because (at the time) his point production was doubling Kadri. This point was dismissed because “points are a counting stat” lol. You can’t use facts against stupidity.

Not the way I live my life.

I deal with what people say and refute things that I believe not to be true.

No need to attack people personally (which we all fail at but I try hard to stay inside the lines)

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I think he meddles in a dollars and cents way. Certainly didn't like his Feaster hire. Some of the coaches hired (outside of Sutter) seemed to be cheap options and that may have been driven by money.

I think he can try to meddle in individual decisions at times too.

I have heard he played a big role in James Neal to Calgary. That he thought Neal was a big factor in the playoff run for Vegas, and when he was still available on Day 2 of free agency he's the one that made the big push to Treliving to sign him.

Now I don't really know if that's true or not...but it kind of makes sense when you consider it was after that season in 2019 when there were rumors that a condition of Treliving re-signing was full autonomy - you're not asking for that if the owner doesn't meddle.

And honeslty I don't blame Edwards for meddling, if I was an owner I would want to meddle too. Hell I'd probably be Jerry Jones and just make myself GM.

But I do fault him a bit for the way he does manage things sometimes and it does seem like his overall mindset is playoffs or bust more than long term building a cup contender.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think he can try to meddle in individual decisions at times too.

I have heard he played a big role in James Neal to Calgary. That he thought Neal was a big factor in the playoff run for Vegas, and when he was still available on Day 2 of free agency he's the one that made the big push to Treliving to sign him.

Now I don't really know if that's true or not...but it kind of makes sense when you consider it was after that season in 2019 when there were rumors that a condition of Treliving re-signing was full autonomy - you're not asking for that if the owner doesn't meddle.

And honeslty I don't blame Edwards for meddling, if I was an owner I would want to meddle too. Hell I'd probably be Jerry Jones and just make myself GM.

But I do fault him a bit for the way he does manage things sometimes and it does seem like his overall mindset is playoffs or bust more than long term building a cup contender.

Interesting. Treliving wanted to buy Neal out a year later, a little I told you so back at the owner?

[Cole436]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

It’s actually totally ok and should be encouraged to let people know what you think of them in a positive or negative light. When you have multiple people telling you that you come across as an ass kisser maybe (with some self awareness) you could look inward and say “hmmm maybe I am, I should work on that”.

You can’t beat up on someone with facts when the person is fundamentally flawed. Like trying to explain how Knies is better than Kadri because (at the time) his point production was doubling Kadri. This point was dismissed because “points are a counting stat” lol. You can’t use facts against stupidity.

Framing this like you’re promoting honesty really just reads like an excuse to be rude. Telling someone how they come across is one thing but acting like your personal thoughts is some form of objective truth they’re obligated to fix is something completely different.

Who are you to tell someone they're "fundamentally flawed”? It really just reads as a convenient way to avoid actually engaging with what they’re saying. If anything is shows that you or whoever is acting that way is incapable of understanding or engaging an argument.

We need to treat people better.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Framing this like you’re promoting honesty really just reads like an excuse to be rude. Telling someone how they come across is one thing but acting like your personal thoughts is some form of objective truth they’re obligated to fix is something completely different.

Who are you to tell someone they're "fundamentally flawed”? It really just reads as a convenient way to avoid actually engaging with what they’re saying. If anything is shows that you or whoever is acting that way is incapable of understanding or engaging an argument.

We need to treat people better.

Very well said!

[Robbob]

I think the owner narrative is just that. From the dawn of time fans at some point have it out with the ownership group. It is just one of those low hanging fruit things that people remarkably easily connect points that sometimes aren't there.

What I know is that at the end of the day, and we have heard this from every GM that has ever been here, that ownership will let the team spend to the cap. I didn't read the athletic article, but if it is true that the Flames ownership is being docked point for this team not spending to the cap then there is something fundamentally flawed with that.

It is all just a bunch of speculation or hearsay and people can choose to run with that if they want, but at the end of the day I don't know if people are ever going to get validation of their opinion on how they perceive Edwards is involved.

It is funny, whether this thread or the long one about yelling at baloney Maloney, in a month and a half when the Flames trade or don't trade someone, no one is going to step on that soap box and say they were wrong. They will say they were justified because the management did this to themselves. Rather then the real reason is that operationally I really don't think they are accountable to fans on the operational day to day activities.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not the way I live my life.

I deal with what people say and refute things that I believe not to be true.

No need to attack people personally (which we all fail at but I try hard to stay inside the lines)

That’s because you’re pretty reasonable, not everyone is. That’s where it’s ok to vocalize an opinion about someone, when they completely refuse to see other viewpoints.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

That’s because you’re pretty reasonable, not everyone is. That’s where it’s ok to vocalize an opinion about someone, when they completely refuse to see other viewpoints.

I think you miss the point.

Ad Hominem attacks are for when you're losing an argument. It's a last gasp. If you do them everyone will see the argument for what it is ... failed.

If you approach a discussion with the notion that you can attack the other side personally because you know they're wrong, there's a big risk of possibly (inevitably) being wrong and then losing your credibility.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think the owner narrative is just that. From the dawn of time fans at some point have it out with the ownership group. It is just one of those low hanging fruit things that people remarkably easily connect points that sometimes aren't there.

What I know is that at the end of the day, and we have heard this from every GM that has ever been here, that ownership will let the team spend to the cap. I didn't read the athletic article, but if it is true that the Flames ownership is being docked point for this team not spending to the cap then there is something fundamentally flawed with that.

It is all just a bunch of speculation or hearsay and people can choose to run with that if they want, but at the end of the day I don't know if people are ever going to get validation of their opinion on how they perceive Edwards is involved.

It is funny, whether this thread or the long one about yelling at baloney Maloney, in a month and a half when the Flames trade or don't trade someone, no one is going to step on that soap box and say they were wrong. They will say they were justified because the management did this to themselves. Rather then the real reason is that operationally I really don't think they are accountable to fans on the operational day to day activities.

The trouble with articles like that one (and one I just saw grading teams at the quarter post) is that they lack nuance of where the team is at currently. So judge the Flames ownership on the steps they are taking at this point in the team's arc, but if they aren't spending to the cap, how does that even relate to the immediate goals? Similarly, if the Flames are "trying" for a high raft pick, why grade the team on its W/L or GF/GA? If the Flames finish last and win the lottery, that's an A+ grade for a lot of people here.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Cole436

Framing this like you’re promoting honesty really just reads like an excuse to be rude. Telling someone how they come across is one thing but acting like your personal thoughts is some form of objective truth they’re obligated to fix is something completely different.

Who are you to tell someone they're "fundamentally flawed”? It really just reads as a convenient way to avoid actually engaging with what they’re saying. If anything is shows that you or whoever is acting that way is incapable of understanding or engaging an argument.

We need to treat people better.

My viewpoint isn’t truth and I’ve never claimed it to be that and no one has to fix anything, that’s the beauty of discussion. There’s a huge difference between understanding someone’s opinion and agreeing with it. Someone who isn’t capable of understanding others views is flawed, not whether they agree with those views or not. Further to that, it’s up to each individual how much value they apply to others opinions. I’m sure some people couldn’t care less about what I think, and that’s fine, I feel that way about some posters too. I tend to not value boot lickers.

We do not need to treat stupidity and stubbornness with kid gloves, it needs to get called out, it’s a welcome change on this board from the homerism.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

My post was tongue in cheek. Don't know Edwards from a hole in the wall but I doubt he would make the top 10 for meddling owners in the NHL. Conroy came in and said he wanted to rebuild, he appeared to say great have at it. Treliving said he wanted to compete and he appeared to say great have at it. Either he meddles with very malleable opinions on what the team should do or he lets the GM implement their plan.

This is kind of how I look at it. When Conroy was hired, the way he described his vision to the public sounded a lot more like taking a patient "rebuild" approach (building through the draft, not letting your best free agents leave for nothing, adding youth in the line-up, etc...). I doubt Conroy said one thing to Edwards and Maloney, then suddenly changed his mind when they held the presser. I suspect that Treliving did the same thing... he sold Edwards on a particular vision and strategy, and based on how he operates in Toronto, it seems like he is still in the same mindset. Trying to pin everything on the owner just seems like an excuse to let the GM off the hook.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think he can try to meddle in individual decisions at times too.

I have heard he played a big role in James Neal to Calgary. That he thought Neal was a big factor in the playoff run for Vegas, and when he was still available on Day 2 of free agency he's the one that made the big push to Treliving to sign him.

Now I don't really know if that's true or not...but it kind of makes sense when you consider it was after that season in 2019 when there were rumors that a condition of Treliving re-signing was full autonomy - you're not asking for that if the owner doesn't meddle.

And honeslty I don't blame Edwards for meddling, if I was an owner I would want to meddle too. Hell I'd probably be Jerry Jones and just make myself GM.

But I do fault him a bit for the way he does manage things sometimes and it does seem like his overall mindset is playoffs or bust more than long term building a cup contender.

I hadn't heard that story about Neal. I have always thought Treliving was just checking bozes and wanted a big net crashing RHS finisher for the top line. Neal had never not scored 20 goals. Where I think all of that went wrong was a lack of due diligence past the goal totals. Neal had a rep and it wasn't a good one.