Hunt and Morton up; Kerins Down

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Do you know who our coach is? Hunt is gonna play.

He didn't last time he was called up.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is the problem with blaming the coach, IMO. Once you do (once you open that door), then EVERYTHING becomes the coach's fault, and you see everything as a bad decision by the coach.

It is evident with every single poster that has joined the Huska Sucks Club - literally everything that happens is another reason to bitch about him.

I am no huge fan or anything, and I'm not going to argue that he should get the Jack Adams. But JC, do we have to rant about him every single day, about every single decision or event?

Not a huge fan? You are his biggest cheerleader on here man. No matter what Huska does there you are to defend it.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Rhett44

High danger chances with Kerins on the ice were 10 to 1 through two games. Or do these stats not matter unless it fits your narrative.

Don't bother, there are a handful of posters on here that will defend Huska until the day he isn't here no matter what he does. Nothing is ever that guys fault.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Don't bother, there are a handful of posters on here that will defend Huska until the day he isn't here no matter what he does. Nothing is ever that guys fault.

There are also a handful of posters here that jump at the chance to frame everything as his fault and categorize anyone who wades in to disagree or just to temper the criticism a bit as “cheerleaders” or some other hyperbole in an attempt to discount those positions.

There’s plenty to criticize him for, but not everything. And given that Conroy is the one who ultimately decides who sits on the Flames roster and who sits on the Wranglers, I’m not sure why Huska is singled out and Conroy skates. Do we think he has no agency and just does whatever the coach, who played Kerins in every game he was up, says?

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Do you know who our coach is? Hunt is gonna play.

Who was the coach when he was called up a week ago and didn't play

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I really don't get the fuss about Huska at this stage.

Yeah it's kind of weird or maybe Flames fans simply don't understand or come to grips that the team's current standing is more a reflection of the talent level on the roster than it is the coaching. I'm not saying that Huska is a really good coach and pressing all the right buttons but I've seen enough bad NHL coaches that he's nowhere near a bad coach. To me he looks like an average NHL head coach at the end of the day and given the current trajectory of the team it's pretty ideal as he's not letting them play pond hockey and trying to keep the team on the same page, playing a team game. I personally don't think he's holding anyone back and poor play is more a reflection of talent which simply isn't good enough. Also I'm not sure if a lot of the Flames current young prospects are good enough as I think we (myself included) have overrated some of these young players. I think Parekh will become an NHL player (could end up a PP specialist) and Coronato will have a career but I'm not seeing a lot on the Wranglers to get excited about outside of Gridin. This organization badly needs that top 3 pick. Badly!

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Not a huge fan? You are his biggest cheerleader on here man. No matter what Huska does there you are to defend it.

I think it wise not to interpret pushing back against hyperbolic criticism as being a fan.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it's kind of weird or maybe Flames fans simply don't understand or come to grips that the team's current standing is more a reflection of the talent level on the roster than it is the coaching. I'm not saying that Huska is a really good coach and pressing all the right buttons but I've seen enough bad NHL coaches that he's nowhere near a bad coach. To me he looks like an average NHL head coach at the end of the day and given the current trajectory of the team it's pretty ideal as he's not letting them play pond hockey and trying to keep the team on the same page, playing a team game. I personally don't think he's holding anyone back and poor play is more a reflection of talent which simply isn't good enough. Also I'm not sure if a lot of the Flames current young prospects are good enough as I think we (myself included) have overrated some of these young players. I think Parekh will become an NHL player (could end up a PP specialist) and Coronato will have a career but I'm not seeing a lot on the Wranglers to get excited about outside of Gridin. This organization badly needs that top 3 pick. Badly!

Well said.

[The EBUG's EBUG]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it's kind of weird or maybe Flames fans simply don't understand or come to grips that the team's current standing is more a reflection of the talent level on the roster than it is the coaching. I'm not saying that Huska is a really good coach and pressing all the right buttons but I've seen enough bad NHL coaches that he's nowhere near a bad coach. To me he looks like an average NHL head coach at the end of the day and given the current trajectory of the team it's pretty ideal as he's not letting them play pond hockey and trying to keep the team on the same page, playing a team game. I personally don't think he's holding anyone back and poor play is more a reflection of talent which simply isn't good enough. Also I'm not sure if a lot of the Flames current young prospects are good enough as I think we (myself included) have overrated some of these young players. I think Parekh will become an NHL player (could end up a PP specialist) and Coronato will have a career but I'm not seeing a lot on the Wranglers to get excited about outside of Gridin. This organization badly needs that top 3 pick. Badly!

You're not wrong, I think the bigger frustration comes from what seems to be a misalignment of goals between the coaching staff and management. If we can agree/assume that management is looking to rebuild/retool whatever you want to call it, then ideally you have a staff that is on board with that plan and manages the players accordingly with a focus on youth development and a willingness to accept earnest mistakes.

While Huska is clearly playing with a team with limited capacity which means he has to try and coach them to low event, soul sucking hockey, I suspect a lot of fans are frustrated that 1) It's not working and 2) It's seemingly coming at the expense of young players who tangibly could contribute to the future of the team down the line.

It's frustrating seeing Lomberg get more looks because this version of the 4th line is what this staff thinks they need to try and sneak out 2-1 wins. It's frustrating seeing Parekh playing with a new guy sometimes on his off side every time he gets in because they think keeping Bahl and Andersson together is the only way they can slow down other team's top lines. It's frustrating seeing Zary come back from injury at the end of last year and end up on the 4th line and now look like he hates hockey so we can see older players get prime minutes and more rope. It's frustrating seeing Kuznetsov on waivers to start the year with only 1 NHL game 2 years earlier because we had to protect Miromanov rather than seeing what Kuznetsov was to start the year.

I get that he thinks he needs to coach to win, and if that's management's mandate than it is what it is and I don't blame him at all. I just think the bigger concern is that at this point you'd love for the priority to be development rather than scratching and clawing for wins at the expense of that development.

[fotze2]

But it is a business and there is not a blueprint that play young guys lots = get awesomer. Plus overbearing dick owner.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah it's kind of weird or maybe Flames fans simply don't understand or come to grips that the team's current standing is more a reflection of the talent level on the roster than it is the coaching. I'm not saying that Huska is a really good coach and pressing all the right buttons but I've seen enough bad NHL coaches that he's nowhere near a bad coach. To me he looks like an average NHL head coach at the end of the day and given the current trajectory of the team it's pretty ideal as he's not letting them play pond hockey and trying to keep the team on the same page, playing a team game. I personally don't think he's holding anyone back and poor play is more a reflection of talent which simply isn't good enough. Also I'm not sure if a lot of the Flames current young prospects are good enough as I think we (myself included) have overrated some of these young players. I think Parekh will become an NHL player (could end up a PP specialist) and Coronato will have a career but I'm not seeing a lot on the Wranglers to get excited about outside of Gridin. This organization badly needs that top 3 pick. Badly!

That's pretty much where I am at. I honestly don't know if Huska is a good coach, but I am pretty sure that coaching isn't the issue at the moment. This team doesn't really have forwards that would be mainstays on the 1st line on a reasonably competitive team. Go over the rosters of almost every other team, and it's hard to see any of our forwards being better than any forward on their 1st lines. We essentially don't have a 1st line except by default. If players aren't executing, no coach can save them.

[Erick Estrada]

Some of his deployment bothers me at times but less these days because this isn't a team on the cusp of greatness and there is no point in pulling my hair out when Lomberg is playing too much on a last place team. All coaches have their favorites, even the great ones and I do think there's a leadership and locker room factor with some of this that fans aren't privy to. The NHL isn't a development league and there's a fine line to tow for the head coach as there's a group of veteran pros in the locker room that have pride and want to win and you can't just start throwing young guys out there to develop and tell everyone that it's okay to be bad and lose games. It certainly appeared that Honzek and Parekh were possibly going to get long leashes this season and I think that's pretty good as you can't expect 1/4 of the roster to be AHL players breaking into the NHL just because fans want to see the young guys developed. I feel this is simply something that all rebuilding fans struggle with especially in Canadian markets.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by alan21

Nothing against Dryden Hunt but what are we doing here?

Trying to shoehorn Hunt into an NHL role he doesn't quite fit (because current full time NHLers are better at it) for the umpteenth time, probably to no avail.

At least trying Morton is interesting.

But they can never resist Hunt.

The same overriding issue persists in all of this though, regardless of who it is: No one is left in the same spot long enough to do anything with it or find traction. And they won't address the numbers issue by making some trades or waiver wire placements to create the space for these kids to take a more stable role.

In the end, no questions are answered because no one is given an audition that's long enough to form a conclusion about what we have.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Trying to shoehorn Hunt into an NHL role he doesn't quite fit (because current full time NHLers are better at it) for the umpteenth time, probably to no avail.

At least trying Morton is interesting.

But they can never resist Hunt.

I'll find Hunt as puzzling as many of you if he's in the lineup and not the guy eating popcorn.

[RedHot25]

How do we know though there is a disconnect between coaching and management that is getting implied by some here?

Huska can't send players down. Just like Conroy can't play them (i.e. during a game but people on the ice).

What if they are more inline than some seem to be thinking in here?

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

At least Kuznetsov "made it". A small victory.

But that's strictly because his style of game makes him a stabilizing, low risk presence. So he shimmied successfully under the coach's limbo bar.

Graduating any players who project to top six roles will be a painstaking process because Huska is risk adverse and needs every one to conform to a style of play. But every successful team relies on a few players who aren't polished on the defensive side, but help the team becasue of their offensive instincts and talent.

So players like Kerins and Gridin will be in tough to graduate full time under the current philosophy unless they convert into a type of player that ceases to let them be what they naturally are.

I just hope Huska acknowledges that not every player on your roster is going to nor supposed to be a well rounded, cerebral 2-way player that stays between the lines. You're supposed to have a few hand grenades at your disposal, and be willing to use them.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It's types of players.

Huska isn't playing a system that is going to suit Huberdeau (who to his credit tried to completely recreate his game to fit it), Coronato, Zary, Sharangovich, Kerins, Frost, etc.

He plays a system that suits guys like Coleman, Farabee, Kadri, Klapka, and it's why visually those guys tend to look better in his system.

They play a get the puck on net, crash the net, and try to score on a rebound type of game. A game more tailored to just going north-south and trying to crash your way to a goal.

The others don't really suit that. Guys who are tailored less to shot volume, and more to pre-shot movement, more to trying to make a riskier pass or a pass through the royal road aren't going to look as good.

It's interesting because I watch the Wranglers sometimes and they seem to attempt to make way more of those risky passes than the Flames do. I think it's more than just talent or skill to do it at this point.

Kerins actually attempted a couple of those passes over the two games, those riskier cross ice passes, and he actually connected on a few of them...but now he finds himself back in the AHL.

Also defensive zone structure plays a role in this too. Flames generate very little of the rush IMO. They play passive in the netural zone and defensive zone and IMO don't generate a lot of those turnovers that lead to odd man rushes. That also hurts certain styles of players, some players need a bit more open space to generate, and you generally get that space in transition.

I was trying to remember a crash and bang goal that Coleman has scored, and couldn't. So I looked up each goal. There are none. Are you sure you are not having a confirmation bias happening? I thought i was, so this is honestly why I bothered to spend some time being unproductive and looking up each of his goals.

Goal against SJ:
https://nhl.com/video/sjs-cgy-colema...-6385081989112


Against COL:
https://nhl.com/video/cbj-cgy-colema...-6384583392112

Against NYR:
SHG: https://nhl.com/video/nyr-cgy-colema...-6384115498112
5on5: https://nhl.com/video/nyr-cgy-colema...-6384116704112


Against WPG:
https://nhl.com/video/cgy-wpg-colema...-6383868042112

Against VGK:
https://nhl.com/video/vgk-cgy-colema...-6382769552112


Against EDM:
https://nhl.com/video/cgy-edm-coleman-scores-goal-against-stuart-skinner-6382445530112

Is there a single goal that happened in the manner that you describe? Let me quote you here:

They play a get the puck on net, crash the net, and try to score on a rebound type of game. A game more tailored to just going north-south and trying to crash your way to a goal.

That's not how I would describe any of those goals at all, other than perhaps his Edmonton goal when Skinner mishandled it. Even then, I can't say that's a crash-and-bang type of goal.


I honestly started to believe some of what you and some other posters were saying, and I ended up thinking: "I must be watching a completely different game." I see the Flames routinely attempt high-percentage plays like royal road passes (back-door passes). Often they are deflected away, get into the feet of the target player, or take too long to come off, giving the goalie and/or defencemen time to adjust.


They don't dump and chase like people are complaining about. They try to enter the zone carrying the puck more often than not.


I just see a low-skill team bumbling plays. If I am Huska, and i am trying to win games, I would be trying to get my players to crash the net more than they have been.


I also see Huska adapting his forecheck system towards what teams and what personnel are on the ice. For instance, sometimes it is just a single fore-checker being sent in, and he doesn't pressure all that much. I notice this against higher-skilled teams, especially ones with defencemen that are great on transition. On different shifts against different defencemen, I see 2 forecheckers coming in hot with one chasing behind the net.


I think people are seeing what they want to see right now. I am not trying to tell you that you are exactly wrong here, but there are two things that have come out of Huska's and Conroy's mouths - the team has complete freedom of creativity on offence. I think what you are seeing is a lack of talent on display. I made a conscious effort to try and notice how many royal road or back-door plays they tried to make, how many times they tried to set an open guy on the other side of the ice and missed, how many times they tried to hi a forward with a clear lane to the net and missed, or the forward fumbles it.


I am not seeing enough crashing of the net. That's not what I see them doing. It seems that they are less willing to actually do that this season, other than Klapka, Lomberg and Farabee. We are watching two completely different games.


When the Flames are getting dominated, all bets are off. Teams can not do what they want to accomplish when the other team is having their own will. However, when the Flames are looking good, try to actually notice how many ATTEMPTS at high-percentage skilled plays they do. Not the actual ones, but the attempts. Do this for a handful of games. I am betting that you will start to notice that they do a lot of attempting, and not a lot of actual shooting and scoring. So to me, this isn't Huska telling them to crash the net and we are seeing that - I see them attempting a lot. I see them carrying the puck into the zone more often than dumping and chasing. I see a team that doesn't have much talent try to make high-talent plays quite often, but fumbling it.




SUMMARY TLDR:


I will keep looking for the things that you said. As I stated, I am definitely aware that I have my own biases. So far, however, I see them attempting a lot and not getting rewarded since:


1) The pucks are missing the target and/or getting into the skates
2) They are being deflected or intercepted by the opposing team
3) Players receiving the puck are taking too long to get their shot off, giving time for the goalie/defence to set
4) Often even when they do it right, they shoot it right into the goalie's crest or miss the net


That's what I am seeing a lot of. Tonnes of attempting, very little actually succeeding.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TrentCrimmIndependent

Trying to shoehorn Hunt into an NHL role he doesn't quite fit (because current full time NHLers are better at it) for the umpteenth time, probably to no avail.

At least trying Morton is interesting.

But they can never resist Hunt.

The same overriding issue persists in all of this though, regardless of who it is: No one is left in the same spot long enough to do anything with it or find traction. And they won't address the numbers issue by making some trades or waiver wire placements to create the space for these kids to take a more stable role.

In the end, no questions are answered because no one is given an audition that's long enough to form a conclusion about what we have.

Hunt hasn't played a single game this year. Last year he played 5, same as Kerins and Honzek, way less than Coronato, Pelletier, Klapka, Zary, Duehr and Pospisil (all younger forwards and I'm not even counting Farabee and Frost). He did get in 28 games in 23-24 (still less than 20 year old Coronato and 21 year old Zary - Pelletier got hurt).

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I was trying to remember a crash and bang goal that Coleman has scored, and couldn't. So I looked up each goal. There are none. Are you sure you are not having a confirmation bias happening? I thought i was, so this is honestly why I bothered to spend some time being unproductive and looking up each of his goals.

Goal against SJ:
https://nhl.com/video/sjs-cgy-colema...-6385081989112


Against COL:
https://nhl.com/video/cbj-cgy-colema...-6384583392112

Against NYR:
SHG: https://nhl.com/video/nyr-cgy-colema...-6384115498112
5on5: https://nhl.com/video/nyr-cgy-colema...-6384116704112


Against WPG:
https://nhl.com/video/cgy-wpg-colema...-6383868042112

Against VGK:
https://nhl.com/video/vgk-cgy-colema...-6382769552112


Against EDM:
https://nhl.com/video/cgy-edm-coleman-scores-goal-against-stuart-skinner-6382445530112

Is there a single goal that happened in the manner that you describe? Let me quote you here:






That's not how I would describe any of those goals at all, other than perhaps his Edmonton goal when Skinner mishandled it. Even then, I can't say that's a crash-and-bang type of goal.


I honestly started to believe some of what you and some other posters were saying, and I ended up thinking: "I must be watching a completely different game." I see the Flames routinely attempt high-percentage plays like royal road passes (back-door passes). Often they are deflected away, get into the feet of the target player, or take too long to come off, giving the goalie and/or defencemen time to adjust.


They don't dump and chase like people are complaining about. They try to enter the zone carrying the puck more often than not.


I just see a low-skill team bumbling plays. If I am Huska, and i am trying to win games, I would be trying to get my players to crash the net more than they have been.


I also see Huska adapting his forecheck system towards what teams and what personnel are on the ice. For instance, sometimes it is just a single fore-checker being sent in, and he doesn't pressure all that much. I notice this against higher-skilled teams, especially ones with defencemen that are great on transition. On different shifts against different defencemen, I see 2 forecheckers coming in hot with one chasing behind the net.


I think people are seeing what they want to see right now. I am not trying to tell you that you are exactly wrong here, but there are two things that have come out of Huska's and Conroy's mouths - the team has complete freedom of creativity on offence. I think what you are seeing is a lack of talent on display. I made a conscious effort to try and notice how many royal road or back-door plays they tried to make, how many times they tried to set an open guy on the other side of the ice and missed, how many times they tried to hi a forward with a clear lane to the net and missed, or the forward fumbles it.


I am not seeing enough crashing of the net. That's not what I see them doing. It seems that they are less willing to actually do that this season, other than Klapka, Lomberg and Farabee. We are watching two completely different games.


When the Flames are getting dominated, all bets are off. Teams can not do what they want to accomplish when the other team is having their own will. However, when the Flames are looking good, try to actually notice how many ATTEMPTS at high-percentage skilled plays they do. Not the actual ones, but the attempts. Do this for a handful of games. I am betting that you will start to notice that they do a lot of attempting, and not a lot of actual shooting and scoring. So to me, this isn't Huska telling them to crash the net and we are seeing that - I see them attempting a lot. I see them carrying the puck into the zone more often than dumping and chasing. I see a team that doesn't have much talent try to make high-talent plays quite often, but fumbling it.




SUMMARY TLDR:


I will keep looking for the things that you said. As I stated, I am definitely aware that I have my own biases. So far, however, I see them attempting a lot and not getting rewarded since:


1) The pucks are missing the target and/or getting into the skates
2) They are being deflected or intercepted by the opposing team
3) Players receiving the puck are taking too long to get their shot off, giving time for the goalie/defence to set
4) Often even when they do it right, they shoot it right into the goalie's crest or miss the net


That's what I am seeing a lot of. Tonnes of attempting, very little actually succeeding.

I feel like Blake Coleman is a very North-South high volume high effort player.

And yes they aren't all crash and bang rebound goals, and that was over simplifying it for sure.

But I'd say pretty much every one of those goals (the only one that wasn't was the SH goal) came more from high effort, North South type of plays, where you're more trying to get pucks on net or generating off of the forecheck.

Which I don't really think changes my point which is that Huska's system is more tailored to those players that play more of a North-South game.

Outside of the SH goal I don't think they were scoring many goals in those highlights off pretty passing plays or royal road passes. It's a lot of North South hockey, getting traffic to the net, generating off turnovers.

Crash and Bang was admittedly a bad descriptor for what I was trying to say but I do think that guys like Kadri, Farabee, and Coleman are much better at playing to the system that Huska wants (volume of shots, generate off the forecheck, jump on turnovers) than guys like Sharangovich, Zary, etc are at playing withing that structure.

Based on what Huska has said throughout his time here (focused on shot volume, playing with pace offensively, generate off the forecheck) I don't think it's some type of controversal insight that Huska want's more North-South hockey, and is focused on simplifying the game, and that certain players are better suited to that type of game than others which I think we actually agree on.

Guys like Klapka, Farabee, Kadri, Coleman, and others do crash the net. I don't think Zary, Sharangovich, Coronato (at times) have been doing that, and I think in some cases aren't very suited to doing it either (I wouldn't hold my breath on Sharangovich or Zary ever playing that style of game effectively).

In the end maybe you are right and they are trying to make those plays and they just aren't good enough at it, but IMO I also don't really think they are that encouraged to try it, because it is riskier and probably is only successful 10-20% of the time.

[BigThief]

Alot of heat in a thread for Sam Morton, Kerins and I can't remember his first name Hunt.