October 6 - So it Begins - The Alberta Teacher Strike

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

You know what the N stands for in LPN correct? This is not RNs, I agree, but LPNs are still nurses.

So...LPNs and RNs have separate Unions?

[puffnstuff]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...ding-9.6969870

The Alberta Teachers’ Association has filed a constitutional challenge of a provincial government law that forced educators across the province back to work and imposed a new contract.

At a Thursday news conference in Edmonton, ATA president Jason Schilling said the application, filed in Alberta’s Court of King’s Bench, also seeks an injunction against the Back to School Act, which is also called Bill 2.

The association wants the court to pause “some or all” of the effects of Bill 2 while it hears the constitutional challenge, according to the court application. The bill used the notwithstanding clause to shield the government from legal challenges.

“Let's call this what it is — it is abuse of power,” Schilling said Thursday. “This clause was not used to protect children, or to preserve democracy, or to address an emergency. It was used to win an argument.”

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by Locke

So...LPNs and RNs have separate Unions?

You know Locke, sometimes I get the sense that you really don’t have much if any knowledge about how unions operate or what they do. Which is pretty consistent with the majority of folks who dislike them

[Zevo]

While they may both be nurses RNs and LPNs are vastly different:

Registered nursing licensure requires considerably more education, which leads to a broader scope of practice for RNs. This licensure also means RNs can work independently in most areas, while LPNs must work under a physician or RN.

LPN Job Duties
LPNs can perform various duties, which include the following:
Collecting and charting vital signs
Distributing oral medications
Checking blood sugar levels
Ambulating, assistance with activities of daily living (such as getting dressed or eating/drinking)
Assisting with bathing and toileting
Other patient care/comfort tasks

RN Job Duties
RNs also perform many of the same duties as LPNs. However, an RN's scope of practice is broader and includes other responsibilities, such as:
Assessing patients
Starting IVs
Distributing oral and IV medications
Collecting blood samples
Performing physical exams
Conducting various diagnostics tests
Educating patients and families
Working with physicians to determine patient treatment plans
Counseling patients
Coordinating treatments with ancillary healthcare professionals (such as physical therapy, nutrition consults, wound care consults, or diabetes specialist consults, to name a few).

What LPNs can do slightly varies from province to province but in B.C. an LPN can't be in an operating room without at least one RN and they can only do certain jobs, among other things.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Zevo

While they may both be nurses RNs and LPNs are vastly different:

What LPNs can do slightly varies from province to province but in B.C. an LPN can't be in an operating room without at least one RN and they can only do certain jobs, among other things.

It is interesting you frame it that way. Looking at how the union frames it, LPNs do about 84% of the work that an RN does but they get 67% of the pay in Alberta.

Whereas in Manitoba the LPNs get 81% of the pay, which is closer to the percentage of the work scope that they do.

If you are going to compare the two similar professions then it makes sense to match up their % of pay with their % of scope of work.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

You know Locke, sometimes I get the sense that you really don’t have much if any knowledge about how unions operate or what they do. Which is pretty consistent with the majority of folks who dislike them

I don't really understand giving Locke the snide remark treatment, since that's not always the case. The question is reasonable given RNs and LPNs have separate unions in many places, but in others they're represented by the same one. Having dated a few nurses, I've learned Alberta's LPNs have a notably broader scope of practice and the gap between LPNs and RNs isn't as large as it is elsewhere, so one who isn't themselves a nurse might be forgiven for not knowing the labour representation of one isn't the same as the other. It really says nothing of knowing anything about how unions work.

On that note, there's nothing about "how unions operate or what they do" that limits them to a single occupation or even a single field. Some are organized narrowly within a trade or profession, like a nurses' or electricians' union, but others are much broader, representing workers across unrelated sectors. The Service Employees International Union, for instance, covers everyone from janitors to hospital staff to airport workers. "Service Employees" is pretty f-cking broad.

Originally Posted by Wolven

It is interesting you frame it that way. Looking at how the union frames it, LPNs do about 84% of the work that an RN does but they get 67% of the pay in Alberta.

Whereas in Manitoba the LPNs get 81% of the pay, which is closer to the percentage of the work scope that they do.

If you are going to compare the two similar professions then it makes sense to match up their % of pay with their % of scope of work.

Yep, LPNs in Alberta are amongst the most autonomous in Canada when you look at clinical activities they're permitted to perform and how they're integrated into health teams. They really should get paid closer to RNs.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I don't really understand giving Locke the snide remark treatment, since that's not always the case. The question is reasonable given RNs and LPNs have separate unions in many places, but in others they're represented by the same one. Having dated a few nurses, I've learned Alberta's LPNs have a notably broader scope of practice and the gap between LPNs and RNs isn't as large as it is elsewhere, so one who isn't themselves a nurse might be forgiven for not knowing the labour representation of one isn't the same as the other. It really says nothing of knowing anything about how unions work.

They all have multiple different unions who represent them. Assuming that everyone working in the same trade are represented by the same union demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding of both this province’s labour code and how unions operate under that code.

Jeez, it was a tongue in cheek post but you managed to spine it into exposing that neither of you really understand how they operate. Well done?

On that note, there's nothing about "how unions operate or what they do" that limits them to a single occupation or even a single field. Some are organized narrowly within a trade or profession, like a nurses' or electricians' union, but others are much broader, representing workers across unrelated sectors. The Service Employees International Union, for instance, covers everyone from janitors to hospital staff to airport workers. "Service Employees" is pretty f-cking broad.

See above.

Yep, LPNs in Alberta are amongst the most autonomous in Canada when you look at clinical activities they're permitted to perform and how they're integrated into health teams. They really should get paid closer to RNs.

Shhhhh…their employers are banking on the “difference” in their duties to pay them $10 less per hour.

[TorqueDog]

Slow your roll. Pointing out that RNs and LPNs sometimes share a union and that Alberta's structure differs doesn't 'expose' a lack of understanding; nothing I said was inaccurate. Yes, in Alberta, LPNs are represented by AUPE while RNs fall under UNA. In BC, both can fall under the same union (BCNU).

Locke asked a simple question about union structure, not labour code minutiae, and your first instinct was to kind of be a dick over a pretty normal question. Most people outside union politics have no reason to memorize which bargaining unit represents which subset of nurses. You could have just said "No, they're different here, unlike elsewhere".

[Geraldsh]

Due to the shortages in Alberta RNs and LPNs cover each other’s duties regardless of the union rules.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Slow your roll. Pointing out that RNs and LPNs sometimes share a union and that Alberta's structure differs doesn't 'expose' a lack of understanding; nothing I said was inaccurate. Yes, in Alberta, LPNs are represented by AUPE while RNs fall under UNA. In BC, both can fall under the same union (BCNU).

Locke asked a simple question about union structure, not labour code minutiae, and your first instinct was to kind of be a dick over a pretty normal question. Most people outside union politics have no reason to memorize which bargaining unit represents which subset of nurses. You could have just said "No, they're different here, unlike elsewhere".

"Kind of"

We all know (/can't escape) that unions are Iggy's sun and moon and stars, but the presumption that someone with no direct relation to an occupation should be aware of some specific union structure is pretty ridiculous.

And just to be clear, I don't really have any understanding of how unions operate beyond what Iggy posts here... so for that, I guess, thanks Iggy :shrug:

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by you&me

And just to be clear, I don't really have any understanding of how unions operate beyond what Iggy posts here... so for that, I guess, thanks Iggy :shrug:

I do not have personal experience with unions but at a high level all of us should be able to understand that the point of unions is to take "working" and "careers" and turn it into a team sport instead of a solo effort.

On a hockey message board, you would expect that most of us would appreciate the team aspect of unions. Otherwise we would all be watching... triathlons or something.

[puffnstuff]

This will be great and definitely solve the problems

https://bsky.app/profile/thebreakdow.../3m52oxhrud22i

The only voting members of the committee to address class size and complexity are all UCP Ministers/MLA’s.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Slow your roll. Pointing out that RNs and LPNs sometimes share a union and that Alberta's structure differs doesn't 'expose' a lack of understanding; nothing I said was inaccurate. Yes, in Alberta, LPNs are represented by AUPE while RNs fall under UNA. In BC, both can fall under the same union (BCNU).

Here’s the thing, you’re also wrong and don’t realize it so yes you did make some inaccurate assessments. Many nurses with varying levels of training are presented by numerous other Unions in probably over a hundred bargaining units. I can’t believe that you would be bothered enough by my post to respond for for Locke. It wasn’t meant to be a shot at him directly but rather a general comment about how aside from people with an obvious motive, in my experience the majority of people who don’t like unions really don’t seem to understand how they work or what they do in the first place. In any event it was pretty tame even if it could be considered as a shot.

Locke asked a simple question about union structure, not labour code minutiae, and your first instinct was to kind of be a dick over a pretty normal question. Most people outside union politics have no reason to memorize which bargaining unit represents which subset of nurses. You could have just said "No, they're different here, unlike elsewhere".

You must not think very much of Locke. I’m pretty confident that he knows me well enough to have seen my post as poking fun, not as some sort of attack on him personally. It’s kind of hilarious that you came in like a white knight to defend him when it was such a harmless comment. If Locke were to post in a similar fashion that I don’t know much about accounting and the tax code I would probably respond myself if I was offended by it(which I wouldn’t be) and if chose not to respond I would straight up be embarrassed for anyone who came out to try and accuse him of being a jerk for saying that.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

This will be great and definitely solve the problems

https://bsky.app/profile/thebreakdow.../3m52oxhrud22i

The only voting members of the committee to address class size and complexity are all UCP Ministers/MLA’s.

So it is a race between the task force and the recalls? If we can recall enough of the committee then maybe some people who take it seriously will finally get enough leverage to make positive changes.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Here’s the thing, you’re also wrong and don’t realize it so yes you did make some inaccurate assessments. Many nurses with varying levels of training are presented by numerous other Unions in probably over a hundred bargaining units.

What I said was accurate in context, which is the current labour dispute: LPNs are AUPE which doesn't represent Alberta's RNs. That directly answers Locke's question. It is completely irrelevant how many other unions they're represented by (AUPE, CUPE, HSAA, etc.) since it doesn't apply to what's happening with AHS. It's just extra detail no one asked for.

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I can’t believe that you would be bothered enough by my post to respond for for Locke. It wasn’t meant to be a shot at him directly but rather a general comment about how aside from people with an obvious motive, in my experience the majority of people who don’t like unions really don’t seem to understand how they work or what they do in the first place. In any event it was pretty tame even if it could be considered as a shot.

What? This is not your first time on a forum; we all respond to each other in threads, that's how a message board works. I mean yeah, the way you engage, I'm surprised people bother to reply to you at all sometimes.

I wonder if this charity gets me a tax receipt.

Look man, Locke's question was reasonable and you came off uncharitably, that's all. If you can't help yourself from being condescending as Encyclopedia Syndicatus amongst the rest of us unorganized masses, well, whatever dude.

[iggy_oi]

TorqueDog, at this point I think the best course of action is for me to just sit back and let this continue to irrationally bother you.

[PepsiFree]

Not really sure how Locke’s comment or Iggy’s comment inspired this much analysis or back and forth. Locke asked a question he could have googled. Iggy gave an accurate but sassy response that didn’t answer the question.

Stand down boys. If the issue was someone kinda being a dick for an offhand comment I’m not sure 8 paragraphs of being a dick back in an attempt to make them feel bad about themselves is the answer.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Wolven

It is interesting you frame it that way. Looking at how the union frames it, LPNs do about 84% of the work that an RN does but they get 67% of the pay in Alberta.

Whereas in Manitoba the LPNs get 81% of the pay, which is closer to the percentage of the work scope that they do.

If you are going to compare the two similar professions then it makes sense to match up their % of pay with their % of scope of work.

I don’t think it works like that.

The last bit of skill is where the increase in value lies. In a non-union environment that last 10% of responsibility can double salaries. Like if you need the 16% of skills that an RN performs you need an RN.

It’s like saying a jr person in a profession can do 80% of the work as the senior person can so should get 80% as much. That just doesn’t make sense. Professionals are paid for the work others can’t do not for the work everyone can do.

[CFO]

Fall school break next week. Well deserved.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by CFO

Fall school break next week. Well deserved.

It's only 3 days, including the stat.