[PGT] Predators defeat Flames 4-2, Nov. 1st

[SemicolonD]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

People say this but it just isn’t true. It’s not any more fun watching 20 year olds lose than it is watching 30 year olds lose. It’s just the slog you have to go through in hopes of winning a lot more than you lose 3-5 years down the line.

I completely disagree. There’s a massive difference between watching what you think is the development and hope for the future versus 30 year olds that have no hope now or the future.

The struggle is what makes the successful conclusion of the build more sweet. (Granted we don’t Buffalo it). But like even with the Gaudreau build, we really didn’t achieve much, but the peak that was Game 7 Johnny snipe was still a fond memory and I’ll never forget being in the dome for it. Just like 04.

The worst is a team pretending they have the horses to compete in the playoffs when that’s not reality, and a coach that is showing that mistakes will materially impact playtime for young players only.

Flames need a tone shift from the coaching side, if vets r gna pout that we’re in a rebuild then so be it. Right now they’re under immense pressure and no one is having fun at all lol.

Team needs to lighten up, throw the kids into the fire, and who knows maybe u actually get some wins and claw back too.

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

That’s true but we’re talking a difference of 1-2 times.

Toronto, Calgary, and Minnesota are all virtually the same during that time frame.

I'm more looking at the Cup winners when I say that. Calgary isn't a destination that can build through free agency and mid-round picks. The best opportunity to win is with top end talent playing on their second contracts, so D+4 to D+10. As a bonus, if you have the talent it increases the likelihood UFA talent will want to play for your organization.

From the last 20 champions all of them had a Top 10 pick 4-10 years prior to winning it all, except 2006 Carolina (Staal D+2) & 2008 Detroit. Narrow it down to Top 5 picks, add only 2023 Vegas (picked 6th) to that list.

For the losing side six didn't pick in the top five within a decade prior: 2018 Vegas (picked 6th), 2015 San Jose, 2014 New York (picked 6th), 2011 Vancouver (Sedin's 2nd/3rd OV - 11 drafts prior), 2009 Detroit, and 2006 Edmonton (picked 6th twice).

Does it mean guaranteed success? Nope. See Buffalo, Columbus, and hopefully Edmonton. It's all comes down to asset management, patience, and (unfortunately) luck. Can ownership, Conroy, and fans deal with the lows for a chance at the real highs? Losing sucks, but seeing a path forward and an effort each night is more exciting than finishing 6th to 12th in the Conference year after year. 2004 was amazing, but 'get in and see' won't bring long term success, unless success means topping out at 1st and 2nd round exits every 2-4 years with a Cinderella run every 30+.

I may have missed a team here or there calculating D+, but not enough to change my mind about the path that must be taken. A very difficult path. But I'm here for it. This is the cap world NHL. Bottom out, load up on young talent, hope and pray, then hopefully time their exits for more assets. Rinse and repeat. Over the past couple years there seems to be a direction the team is going in instead of just seeing how it goes year after year.

Honestly, this is probably the most excited I've been about the Flames in a long while.

[combustiblefuel]

Just watched the replay,Went as expected.

The only thing worst then the Flames game they played is how the decided to do a little " tribute " section on Orca Wiesblatt. The whole tone of the segment was wrong IMO
It's wasn't a tragedy how he died. He was really drunk driving over the speed limit by a far margin with a passenger coming out of downtown . He was heading northbound at 3am meaning he was coming out of 1 of the 2 places that operate till 2 in the whole town( north Nanaimo has a bylaws nothing operates after 11am unless specially granted meaning basically browns social house till 12 and The Well who opened in 1981). He was know in the community for partying and making bad choices.

I guess What rubbed me the wrong way is how it was portrayed as such a tragedy when it wasn't. He drank sped and lost control of his vehicle. He's lucky he didn't kill his passenger or anyone else. I remember when it happened. He blew a straight on the road that turns into a slight corner like a slight corner. He definitely was very drunk and or very speeding .

Before any one jumps on me remember this is the very type of person killed Johnny and his brother. I feel that the hockey community overall has been so empathetic to him especially on the heels of Johnny's death. O and his family were the ones back during covid in 2020 that had the viral videos of them breaking covid protocols at the south wood rink so ya family seems smart.

That " tribute " ####s on John's tribute. Cool this guy played for Calgary minor leugue system and a ton of ppl know him so drunk driving and speeding is okay. Drunk driver same behavior ALL YEAR LAST YEAR . KILLS A SUPER STAR !. EVIL INCARNATE! Orca does it and it's tragic and unimaginable. #### off.

It happened in my community ad he was leaving downtown town after 2 only 2 places in town to leave at that time. I get why outside Nanaimo you wouldn't be so pissed . But this guy put a community at risk . Drinking and speeding.

[UKflames]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Unless something changes, this may be the worst season ever for this team.Worse than 2014/15 which was a team that literally had no talent and regularly iced a 4th line entirely made up of goons. I think there's actually quite a bit of talent on this team, so the fact that they're losing this much is shocking, and I wonder if something is breaking or broken in that locker room. All the good vibes around the team that we saw last year are completely gone. It's a little disturbing to watch.

I think the problem in the dressing room at this point is that the team know this season isn't going well and players are going to be heading out of the door, meybe even before the Christmas break. That plays on players minds and the mistakes creep into the games on the ice.

I know the stats say otherwise, but I felt that was one of the worst performances so far, they just couldn't get anything going consistently, until the two goals in the third. Credit to the Preds they play a very high forcheck and active pk which stiffled our lack of talent even more.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Man, what?

90s and early 2010s erasure aside, we just traded half our roster with two more vets the block, have one of the lowest payrolls in the entire league, and have 2 wins on the season.

The ship you’re ready to see set sail has been out of sight for a year already.

"Erasure"? No... we have different ideas on what bottoming out means.

To me it means finishing low enough in the standings to get a top 5 (arguably top 3) pick.

We've gotten Bennett at #4 OA and... that's literally it for top 5 picks since our only cup win.

The journey to a top 5 pick may have started last year, but it hasn't reached any of its destinations yet. Maybe next year's draft could be one. We'll see.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Disagree. Last year wasn't about talent, they got a lot of breaks, and it kept their confidence up and they kept finding ways to get a win here and an OTL there. They over achieved.

Exactly. Last season, the Flames had one of the worst rosters in the league - only the Ducks, Preds, and Sharks scored fewer goals. They nearly clawed their way into the playoffs because of goaltending, the confidence that good goaltending can give a team, and a lot of luck. The style they played last season is difficult to sustain even when things are going well and your goalies are giving you a chance to win most every night. With the goaltending coming back to earth, along with the laws of probability, an already weak and talent-starved roster has come back to earth as well.

It has nothing to do with the coach (who’s the same as last season), or the dressing-room (also the same as last season).

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Igottago

There isn't. They are where they should be.

Lol, no they are not.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

"Erasure"? No... we have different ideas on what bottoming out means.

To me it means finishing low enough in the standings to get a top 5 (arguably top 3) pick.

We've gotten Bennett at #4 OA and... that's literally it for top 5 picks since our only cup win.

The journey to a top 5 pick may have started last year, but it hasn't reached any of its destinations yet. Maybe next year's draft could be one. We'll see.

“Trying” something is not the same as “succeeding” at something. If your argument is that they’ve never been the worst team in the league or had a top 3 pick, sure. But that’s a result, not an intent.

If your argument is that they’ve never “tried” to be near there (or more accurately, that they’re never not-tried to make the playoffs and just accepted being as bad as they end up being) then you’re objectively wrong.

In 98 they were 3 points out of a top 3 pick.

In 16 they were 2 points out of a top 3 pick.

Unfortunately there are other teams that play the games so the Flames aren’t and will never be totally in control of exactly how bad they end up being, unless you want to advocate for trading guys like Wolf and Coronato along with all the vets.

I know you’ve come to the realization recently that the team is bad and might need to rebuild, but they traded away most of their roster over the past two years, got mostly draft picks back, and didn’t even bother adding anything when they were in a playoff spot last year. Whether you saw it or not, the reality is pretty clear.

[Goriders]

Far as I can tell in an 82 game schedule the worst Flames team ever got 67 points.

The current abomination is on pace for 38 points. Definitely the worst ever by a long shot.

[Robbob]

I know we got Tkachuk at 6, but if I recall the Jets won the second lottery to jump over the Flames to move them for 5 to 6. So technically that season was a draft top 5 season, the lottery just pulled them out of top 5. Thanks to Vancouver they still managed to get that elite player.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Mathgod

They never picked top 5 during that period. So maybe they tried bottoming out in some sense, but they never actually did what was required to ensure multiple top 5 picks (with some top 3s in the mix). Not entirely their fault, I get it.

There was absolutely no way to ‘ensure multiple top 5 picks’. At least half a dozen small-market teams were in exactly the same position, and all doing whatever they could to keep alive by getting top draft picks. You can't even win at being a loser when there's that much competition.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Far as I can tell in an 82 game schedule the worst Flames team ever got 67 points.

The current abomination is on pace for 38 points. Definitely the worst ever by a long shot.

And yet they have way more talent than the roster your referring to. It isn't the coach though! He is a stud, one of the best coaches we have ever had according to some.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And yet they have way more talent than the roster your referring to. It isn't the coach though! He is a stud, one of the best coaches we have ever had according to some.

Has anyone at all been saying that? No, you just have to portray your opponents as demented extremists to justify your own extreme opposition.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Has anyone at all been saying that? No, you just have to portray your opponents as demented extremists to justify your own extreme opposition.

Look, Jay Random has become unhinged yet again lol. You should probably take a break.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And yet they have way more talent than the roster your referring to. It isn't the coach though! He is a stud, one of the best coaches we have ever had according to some.

According to who?

Not sure I've ever seen anyway say that.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And yet they have way more talent than the roster your referring to. It isn't the coach though! He is a stud, one of the best coaches we have ever had according to some.

I know you don’t like Huska. I don’t think he’s that bad.

But I agree with you on the roster. It’s fascinating now to watch how they fail on game day. It’s always something new.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bingo

According to who?

Not sure I've ever seen anyway say that.

There was literally a post the other day that listed almost every other year coach we have had and said they were worse. When I argued against it I had plenty of pushback.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Goriders

I know you don’t like Huska. I don’t think he’s that bad.

But I agree with you on the roster. It’s fascinating now to watch how they fail on game day. It’s always something new.

This roster sucks. It was one of the worst in the NHL last year on paper and is one of the worst this year again. Hard to find 5 worse rosters in the NHL, certainly would not be able to find 10, either this year or last year. They just overperformed last year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

There was literally a post the other day that listed almost every other year coach we have had and said they were worse. When I argued against it I had plenty of pushback.

I think some say he did well last year to get them that close, but that's a far cry from one of the best coaches the team has ever had.

[Mathgod]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

“Trying” something is not the same as “succeeding” at something. If your argument is that they’ve never been the worst team in the league or had a top 3 pick, sure. But that’s a result, not an intent.

If your argument is that they’ve never “tried” to be near there (or more accurately, that they’re never not-tried to make the playoffs and just accepted being as bad as they end up being) then you’re objectively wrong.

In 98 they were 3 points out of a top 3 pick.

In 16 they were 2 points out of a top 3 pick.

Unfortunately there are other teams that play the games so the Flames aren’t and will never be totally in control of exactly how bad they end up being, unless you want to advocate for trading guys like Wolf and Coronato along with all the vets.

I know you’ve come to the realization recently that the team is bad and might need to rebuild, but they traded away most of their roster over the past two years, got mostly draft picks back, and didn’t even bother adding anything when they were in a playoff spot last year. Whether you saw it or not, the reality is pretty clear.

Well actually, the bolded is what I've been getting at this entire time. To me, truly bottoming out doesn't mean trying to doing it for one or two years, and when you don't get the quality of talent you need, you quit the plan and go right back to trying to make the playoffs.

To me, truly bottoming out means sticking with the plan until you actually do get some top-end young talents from the top of the draft, before going back into compete mode.

By this definition, no the Flames have not done this.

You could argue that Johnny-Mony-Chucky-Benny was a core we bottomed out for. There are a few problems with this theory, first, only one was a top 5 pick, second, Benny never panned out here, third, Mony kept getting hurt at unfortunate times. Then there was the tendency for these guys (except for Benny) to disappear in the playoffs.

So no, I don't think we've ever truly bottomed out by my definition of it.

To be clear, my posts should not be construed as criticism of today's Flames management. You seem to have interpreted them this way. Put your mind at ease - I'm not upset at anyone. All I'm saying is I no longer believe this team can make the playoffs this year, and it's time to truly do what it takes to land a top player from the upcoming draft and probably the one after that as well.

TBPC: I've been very happy with the work Conny has done since becoming GM.

Ultimately there was a perfect opportunity to enter a rebuild following the departure of Johnny & Chucky, but the decision to not do so is what set this franchise back by 3 years. That call was likely made by Tre or Edwards, not Conny.

Can't turn back time, but can do what's best starting now.