Recall the UCP and other activist responses

[Torture]

Originally Posted by troutman

What will be the point of elections if all sides constantly file recall petitions?

I say beat them at the ballot box.

Beat them in the ballot box sure, but I for one would prefer we don't have to wait 2 years until the next election.

This is a way to send an incredibly strong message, weaken the current UCP majority, and tilt the odds towards more internal UCP drama or an early election.

[btimbit]

Ideally it puts pressure on, maybe more less deplorable MLAs either cross the floor or at least leave the UCP and sit independent. Need to weaken the Wildrose so that the 'I only vote something with conservative in the name' crowd is forced to actually look at policy, even if they ignore what the NDP have to say maybe they'll at least look at what the PC's have to say

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by troutman

I’m thinking about a slippery slope. We recall one of their guys, they will try to recall ours. x 10.

People tried to recall Gondek. People camped outside her personal residence.

That's just it. They are already wielding it as a weapon against people they do not like. In their arrogance, they likely never thought that the recall process would be turned against them. Or even if it was, they did not think that the 'libs' could organize enough to use the process as effectively as their people.

But at this point, using it is the best option as it is the fastest and most definitive response we can give to them after their use of the NWC. Besides, they built it for us and the only way the process would ever be dismantled is if a government gets so scared of recalls that they legislate the process out of existence.

If you want to take the morale high-ground then let's just ensure no one is camped outside the houses of the MLAs we are recalling. It is enough that we are kicking them out of the government. If more action is required then hopefully the RCMP starts some investigations into corruption and theft of public funds.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Wolven

That's just it. They are already wielding it as a weapon against people they do not like. In their arrogance, they likely never thought that the recall process would be turned against them. Or even if it was, they did not think that the 'libs' could organize enough to use the process as effectively as their people.

But at this point, using it is the best option as it is the fastest and most definitive response we can give to them after their use of the NWC. Besides, they built it for us and the only way the process would ever be dismantled is if a government gets so scared of recalls that they legislate the process out of existence.

If you want to take the morale high-ground then let's just ensure no one is camped outside the houses of the MLAs we are recalling. It is enough that we are kicking them out of the government. If more action is required then hopefully the RCMP starts some investigations into corruption and theft of public funds.

Not to mention there is literally zero benefit to camping outside the houses of MLAs. Instead of harassing them, go pound the pavement and get signatures if you want to recall them.

[#-3]

Originally Posted by troutman

I’m thinking about a slippery slope. We recall one of their guys, they will try to recall ours. x 10.

People tried to recall Gondek. People camped outside her personal residence.

https://www.projectcalgary.org/recal...tion_is_a_flop



Google AI overview:

Arguments for recalls being undemocratic

Undermine stability: Some argue that the threat of a recall election can lead to political paralysis and instability.
Polarization: Recalls can be used as a political weapon, encouraging parties to sabotage opponents and increase polarization.
Undue influence: While proponents argue for more accountability, critics might argue that recalls can give disproportionate power to small groups of voters or political opponents to disrupt the democratic process.
"Chilling effect": The constant threat of a recall could make politicians risk-averse, discouraging them from making bold but necessary decisions.

Arguments against recalls being undemocratic

Enhance accountability: Supporters see recalls as a democratic tool to hold elected officials accountable to their constituents, especially when they believe an official is not serving their interests.
Increase representation: By giving the electorate a way to act between elections, recalls can give people a greater sense of being represented.
Strengthen the mandate: Some evidence suggests that recalls may have improved trust in government in certain contexts.
A check on power: Like other checks and balances in a democracy, recalls can prevent elected officials from overstepping their authority without fearing consequences.

The barrier to achieve these petition margins is actually astronomical, it's just this government has become so objectionable to 15-20% of the population that it is realistic.

This is not a problem for anyone who doesn't exude such and extreme level of incompetence or malice in their role that they credibly fear their opponent can garner 20% more recall signatures than they received votes in the previous election.

In my riding the NDP received 7798 votes and the UPC received 7927 votes. the recall number is 9503, the fact that it is a realistic idea being floated should be enough to shock the party into dismissing Smith, and if they don't then this public needs to end this government.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by troutman

What will be the point of elections if all sides constantly file recall petitions?

I say beat them at the ballot box.

Well, that's the idea - if the recall gets enough signatures, you still have to have not only a vote to recall the MLA but then an actual by-election for their seat.

So yeah, you still have to beat them at the ballot box.

[Wolven]

Oh snap!

https://operationtotalrecall.ca/

No notes, it is beautiful.

[Fuzz]

Anyone know any tip lines in Saudi Arabia? Be a real shame if she got detained there for some morality crime...

[Barnet Flame]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Anyone know any tip lines in Saudi Arabia? Be a real shame if she got detained there for some morality crime...

I believe she is in almost perfect alignment with the moral code there.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, that's the idea - if the recall gets enough signatures, you still have to have not only a vote to recall the MLA but then an actual by-election for their seat.

So yeah, you still have to beat them at the ballot box.

Right, I mean beat them in the general election. If there are numerous mid-term by-elections, aren’t we usurping the will of the majority? My hope is these situations are rare and reserved for clear and exceptional cases. But I don’t trust the people behind the UCP and they are quite happy to play dirty pool.

Look at how the redistricting debate is ballooning in the US and A. Tit for tat in a race to the bottom.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by troutman

Right, I mean beat them in the general election. If there are numerous mid-term by-elections, aren’t we usurping the will of the majority? My hope is these situations are rare and reserved for clear and exceptional cases. But I don’t trust the people behind the UCP and they are quite happy to play dirty pool.

Look at how the redistricting debate is ballooning in the US and A. Tit for tat in a race to the bottom.

IMO there is nothing but upside to demanding more accountability from politicians, and generating more political engagement amongst the electorate beyond campaign times.

Our democracy is quite flawed - I don't think a FPTP election every 4 (4.5 this time!) years is terribly effective at defining the will of the people (to be pedantic, governments should not only serve the 'will of the majority')

[Caged Great]

Got another hundred or so today, a bunch of us finally got the badges, and it’ll be a big thing tomorrow.

[D as in David]

If we wait another two years to boot out these clowns, there will be an Alberta police force and pension plan by then. The time is now.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by troutman

Right, I mean beat them in the general election. If there are numerous mid-term by-elections, aren’t we usurping the will of the majority? My hope is these situations are rare and reserved for clear and exceptional cases. But I don’t trust the people behind the UCP and they are quite happy to play dirty pool.

Look at how the redistricting debate is ballooning in the US and A. Tit for tat in a race to the bottom.

How long do you think the "will of the majority" should last? The recall process documents the timing within the process documentation:

When can a Recall Petition application be made?
A recall petition application may be made during the MLA’s term in office except:

within the 12-month period immediately following the day on which the MLA was elected,
within the 12-month period before the next fixed provincial general election day,
during the writ period of a by-election or general election in that electoral division, or
if another application for recall for that electoral division has been issued or published by the Chief Electoral Officer.
The application period is open 12 months after the Provincial General Election held on May 29, 2023, and closes 12 months before the next scheduled Provincial General Election to be held October 18, 2027.

For most MLAs, this means the current recall application period is open May 29, 2024, to October 18, 2026. If the MLA was elected in a by-election, the opening date is 12 months after their election.

If you are going to have a recall process at all, I do not mind those time periods. There is a reasonable cooldown period after the last election so that you can give the MLA a chance to work for a year before a recall. Ideally the MLA is not doing anything to piss off the majority of the voters because the threshold is not just a 50% majority but 60% of the total number of votes cast in the last election.

Collecting signatures totalling at least 60% of the total number of votes cast in electoral division in the most recent election for the petition to be successful.

By definition, the recall only works if the will of the majority says the elected MLA has done something so wrong that 60% of them are willing to sign a petition. But this is a new 'will of the majority' that has been updated by the actions of the MLA.

As for "rare and exceptional cases", I think the first and only use of the Notwithstanding Clause in the history of our province is exactly what you are looking for. We are not recalling the UCP because they gave themselves raises (which they did), or because they are grifting billions of our dollars to their friends (did that too - multiple times), but because they are destroying our public education system and revoking the charter rights of our fellow citizens (unique situation!).

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Oh snap!

https://operationtotalrecall.ca/

No notes, it is beautiful.

Nice to see Calgary North's recall already in motion. I will sign that piece of paper as soon as I'm able to, Yaseen is an empty suit

[#-3]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Nice to see Calgary North's recall already in motion. I will sign that piece of paper as soon as I'm able to, Yaseen is an empty suit

If you are interested in helping, the organizers seems to be gathering people here for when they are ready to get to work on this.

Some of the people seem more upset with the overall lack of public engagement from a guy who had the 2nd narrowest margin in the last election. You'd think he'd want to double down on constituent engagement, but instead he hides from anyone who challenges him at all.


https://www.facebook.com/groups/1537745113894100

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Wolven

How long do you think the "will of the majority" should last? The recall process documents the timing within the process documentation:



If you are going to have a recall process at all, I do not mind those time periods. There is a reasonable cooldown period after the last election so that you can give the MLA a chance to work for a year before a recall. Ideally the MLA is not doing anything to piss off the majority of the voters because the threshold is not just a 50% majority but 60% of the total number of votes cast in the last election.



By definition, the recall only works if the will of the majority says the elected MLA has done something so wrong that 60% of them are willing to sign a petition. But this is a new 'will of the majority' that has been updated by the actions of the MLA.

As for "rare and exceptional cases", I think the first and only use of the Notwithstanding Clause in the history of our province is exactly what you are looking for. We are not recalling the UCP because they gave themselves raises (which they did), or because they are grifting billions of our dollars to their friends (did that too - multiple times), but because they are destroying our public education system and revoking the charter rights of our fellow citizens (unique situation!).

Sadly, this is not true.
Klein used it in 2000 to try to block same sex marriage in Alberta.
But that was actually struck down by the Supreme Court because Provinces don't have the authority to define marriage. So even though it was ultimately unsuccessful, it was used.....to keep gay people from getting married....

Man, sometimes it really is embarrassing to be from Alberta.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Sadly, this is not true.
Klein used it in 2000 to try to block same sex marriage in Alberta.
But that was actually struck down by the Supreme Court because Provinces don't have the authority to define marriage. So even though it was ultimately unsuccessful, it was used.....to keep gay people from getting married....

Man, sometimes it really is embarrassing to be from Alberta.

Right, that is gross. I forgot about that.

I think my point still stands - it is a very rare thing to have the NWC be used in Alberta and I think the terrible ways that the NWC is being used are justification to use the recall process. The Notwithstanding clause is not normal legislation and policy, it is extreme and radical and should only be used in emergency situations to protect the population.

It should not be used as a negotiation tactic with workers and it should never be considered to be a normal thing to for the government to use.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Oh snap!

https://operationtotalrecall.ca/

No notes, it is beautiful.

Went back to the Operation Total Recall website this morning and was shocked to see the movement. Last night only 4 recalls had moved out of the "Not Started" status.

Now there are 10 in motion.

• 4 targeted - Step 1 in their process
• 3 Initial Paperwork Submitted - Step 2 in the process
• 2 Organizing - Step 4 in the process, after initial paperwork approval and before gathering signatures
• 1 Gathering signatures

I love that one of the ones that just jumped all the way to Organizing is for Ric McIver in Calgary-Hays.

[indes]

EDIT: Can't read apparently