The sooner the children learn that life is an endless series of disappointments and #### sandwiches the better they'll be prepared for the unmitigated ####storm that is life.
"Did you get anything you wanted?"
Nobody ever gets anything they want. If anyone told you this was going to be 'fair' then they were lying to you.
The government had a lot of alternative options available that would have been more “fair” than the one they chose. So there’s that.
The problem is the keyboard warriors didn’t do any research before anointing their new saviours. Less than half of all Union members in the province are members of the AFL, so as I stated earlier they don’t speak for every Union or their members.
I wasn’t a big fan of their initial announcement because even though I know a well executed general strike would most likely work, at this time I don’t think they have enough support to put on an effective one. I wish that wasn’t the case but it is what it is. Blaming them for pissing away this “opportunity” comes off as a lack of accountability from yourself. These Unions have been standing up to this government for years but no one cared until the government felt emboldened enough to do something this extreme that might eventually be used against them.
Maybe take my advice and take some steps to help change that if you’re as frustrated about it as I am.
The irony of you accusing others of being keyboard warriors aside, most Albertans don't feel like they need any saving. This does not affect my family directly...it's just another really big #### apple off the UCP #### tree.
Was there not a very similar situation in Ontario a few years ago? Many of us are confused about why Alberta unions seem to be struggling to follow that playbook that proved successful. You said something like Alberta has tougher laws that make unions weaker here...can you elaborate? Did Ontario unions not take on substantial risk in doing what they did?
Lots of the general public are frothing at the mouth to help right now...and the most pro-union person I [virtually] know is just telling us to shut up because we don't really understand...but also to figure out what we need to do ourselves. Let's get cliché for a moment - Chinese crisis --> opportunity...why are you taking such a condescending and defeatist attitude right now? I'm sure it's annoying to hear a jabroni like me tell you how to win, but do you not want to win? Or do you prefer to just continue to bemoan the lack of union support from the general public? If so, you'll probably be in luck in about two weeks from now as most people will stop caring or have forgotten about this altogether
__________________
The UCP are trampling on our rights and freedoms. Donate $200 to Alberta NDP and get $150 back on your taxes
The Following User Says Thank You to powderjunkie For This Useful Post:
If I was a teacher that lost a month of pay just to get the same deal I was offered a month earlier, id be so angry. Like there would be steam coming out of my head.
It's wild to me that the ATA never got this sense from the government. Or alternatively, they knew the government's plan, but negotiated the way they did. Presumably there would have been more value in trying to get a bit more out of the government via negotiation (whether on pay or hiring) rather than getting the government's proposal legislated.
It sure feels like the only beneficiary from the strike and legislated solution in the NDP.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
The fact Gullfoss is not banned for life on here is such an embarrassment. Just a joke.
The Following User Says Thank You to GullFoss For This Useful Post:
If I was a teacher that lost a month of pay just to get the same deal I was offered a month earlier, id be so angry. Like there would be steam coming out of my head.
It's wild to me that the ATA never got this sense from the government. Or alternatively, they knew the government's plan, but negotiated the way they did. Presumably there would have been more value in trying to get a bit more out of the government via negotiation (whether on pay or hiring) rather than getting the government's proposal legislated.
It sure feels like the only beneficiary from the strike and legislated solution in the NDP.
There is literally nothing the ATA could have done. All they really wanted was the same level of funding and classroom size restrictions that the rest of Canada enjoys, that's it. Yet the UCP kept throwing the same crappy deal at them with zero changes until they forced it down the teachers throats, they had no intentions to bargain in good faith from day 1
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hemi-Cuda For This Useful Post:
The irony of you accusing others of being keyboard warriors aside, most Albertans don't feel like they need any saving. This does not affect my family directly...it's just another really big #### apple off the UCP #### tree.
How is that ironic? What is it that you think I’m only willing to do or discuss from behind the safety of a screen?
Quote:
Was there not a very similar situation in Ontario a few years ago? Many of us are confused about why Alberta unions seem to be struggling to follow that playbook that proved successful. You said something like Alberta has tougher laws that make unions weaker here...can you elaborate? Did Ontario unions not take on substantial risk in doing what they did?
The Union density in Ontario, while not much higher than Alberta’s has more leverage due to the economic impact they can have due to a higher number of union workers in key industries driving their economy. It also helps that overall voters there are more supportive of Unions. It also doesn’t hurt having a premier who isn’t a completely ideological wingnut. All of these factors increase the likelihood of a general strike working.
Quote:
Lots of the general public are frothing at the mouth to help right now...and the most pro-union person I [virtually] know is just telling us to shut up because we don't really understand…but also to figure out what we need to do ourselves.
Holy #### dude, I took the time to explain to you why your expectations aren’t realistic and then gave suggestions for how you can get the result you’re looking for since you’re (unintentionally) oblivious to why what you’re hoping for won’t work. I’m honestly and sincerely trying to offer advice because I want you to be able to get the outcome you claim to want as a member of the frothing at the mouth to help crowd. You can take that for what it’s worth.
Quote:
Let's get cliché for a moment - Chinese crisis --> opportunity...why are you taking such a condescending and defeatist attitude right now? I'm sure it's annoying to hear a jabroni like me tell you how to win, but do you not want to win? Or do you prefer to just continue to bemoan the lack of union support from the general public? If so, you'll probably be in luck in about two weeks from now as most people will stop caring or have forgotten about this altogether
Yeah I’m aware that most people won’t care in two weeks, as is the government who in the opinion of many unnecessarily used the notwithstanding clause to deny Albertans their Charter protected rights. That’s why I’m not pretending like it isn’t the likeliest outcome or getting my hopes up. Instead, I’m just taking this opportunity to inform people on what can actually help prevent these kinds of situations going forward, as opposed to your solution which is essentially using people who you would otherwise not really support to achieve your desired outcome.
I have no control over your opinion that my attitude is condescending and defeatist, but what I can say is that your theory of what will help “win” is flawed in it’s assumption that Unions have unlimited resources at their disposal. Taking on the government ain’t cheap powderjunkie.
If I was a teacher that lost a month of pay just to get the same deal I was offered a month earlier, id be so angry. Like there would be steam coming out of my head.
It's wild to me that the ATA never got this sense from the government. Or alternatively, they knew the government's plan, but negotiated the way they did. Presumably there would have been more value in trying to get a bit more out of the government via negotiation (whether on pay or hiring) rather than getting the government's proposal legislated.
It sure feels like the only beneficiary from the strike and legislated solution in the NDP.
The negotiators need a strong mandate from teachers to be able to do anything.
They showed up to the table last year to be told by TEBA that TEBA does not have any permission from the government to negotiate class size, student:teacher ratio, or salary beyond a certain point. They went back and forth for some time before getting a mediator who recommended terms of settlement. 3% over 4 years & a committee that meets twice a year to hear teachers concerns about class size & complexity. Teachers soundly rejected that offer. The message was, include class size & complexity or student:teacher ratio language or pay us more to tolerate what we have to tolerate.
So back to the table. As I understand it, TEBA asked the ATA what might get teachers to move more towards a yes? ATA suggested that more teachers are needed to address class size and student:teacher ratio issues. Did they put a number out there? Who knows. But the government came back with the same offer: 3% over 4 years and 3000 FTE teachers (1000 a year for 3 years) hired across the province to address class size issues. Now at this point the ATA brought this back to teachers.
Frankly 3000 teachers is maybe 1/3 of what we need. This was not going to make an impact for 90%+ of teachers. There was no movement on salary, and I think what really pissed people off is that there was a free Covid shot included with this offer. To be clear this is the first time the government actually offered teachers anything - the deal that was voted down in the spring was a mediator's recommendation. Teachers soundly rejected it (89.5% NO, 94% turnout). The message, this is an insult, include class size & complexity or student:teacher ratio language or pay us more to tolerate it.
Last week, the government offered the ATA "enhanced mediation" with the caveat that under no circumstances was the mediator to consider class size or student:teacher ratio. The ATA, under clear mandate from their members, said that was unacceptable to members and they would not be participating in mediation that did not include those terms.
The government, knowing they are not in a "winning" position to go to binding arbitration (because every other jurisdiction has this language) could have dictated the terms of arbitration and sent us there. But they wanted to leave nothing to chance. The risk of an arbitrator awarding teachers 5% or 6% was too great, so instead they chose to impose a contract, leave nothing to chance, and use the NWC to block any sort of court challenge. They imposed extremely stiff penalties to essentially make it impossible for the ATA to defy the legislation. The fines on the association amount to 6x what they normally would under Labour Relations Code, the fines on individuals end up being double what the Labour Relations Code says.
They never had any intention to come to a fair deal. When the ATA didn't accept their "enhanced mediation" offer last week, they decided to just put the hammer down and end it - and impose their terms.
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to malcolmk14 For This Useful Post:
I have a question for teachers, I hear a lot that they need to buy stuff for their classrooms, what stuff is it?
I was in a discussion with someone in the trades where he was saying that he needs to buy his own tools so the teachers should have to do the same. Since I could not say what the teachers actually buy with their own money I could not overly discuss past that.
If I was a teacher that lost a month of pay just to get the same deal I was offered a month earlier, id be so angry. Like there would be steam coming out of my head.
It's wild to me that the ATA never got this sense from the government. Or alternatively, they knew the government's plan, but negotiated the way they did. Presumably there would have been more value in trying to get a bit more out of the government via negotiation (whether on pay or hiring) rather than getting the government's proposal legislated.
It sure feels like the only beneficiary from the strike and legislated solution in the NDP.
Not true. The teachers stood up to a bully, and revealed to all Albertans just how inhumane, cruel and evil the UCP really are. It's up to Albertans now to do with that what they should. Sometimes you gotta stand there and get punched in the face before everyone else clues in who the ####ing assehole is. Unfortunately Albertans forced the teachers into getting punched in the face.
If you want to feel bad for the teachers and you are angry, you should be ####ing pissed off at anyone who voted UCP that led to this inevitable #### kicking.
The Following User Says Thank You to Fuzz For This Useful Post:
I have a question for teachers, I hear a lot that they need to buy stuff for their classrooms, what stuff is it?
I was in a discussion with someone in the trades where he was saying that he needs to buy his own tools so the teachers should have to do the same. Since I could not say what the teachers actually buy with their own money I could not overly discuss past that.
Aren't they usually buying supplies for the students that don't have them?
Would be the equivalent of your trades person having to buy tools for the other workers that can't afford them...
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bigtime For This Useful Post:
The negotiators need a strong mandate from teachers to be able to do anything.
They showed up to the table last year to be told by TEBA that TEBA does not have any permission from the government to negotiate class size, student:teacher ratio, or salary beyond a certain point. They went back and forth for some time before getting a mediator who recommended terms of settlement. 3% over 4 years & a committee that meets twice a year to hear teachers concerns about class size & complexity. Teachers soundly rejected that offer. The message was, include class size & complexity or student:teacher ratio language or pay us more to tolerate what we have to tolerate.
So back to the table. As I understand it, TEBA asked the ATA what might get teachers to move more towards a yes? ATA suggested that more teachers are needed to address class size and student:teacher ratio issues. Did they put a number out there? Who knows. But the government came back with the same offer: 3% over 4 years and 3000 FTE teachers (1000 a year for 3 years) hired across the province to address class size issues. Now at this point the ATA brought this back to teachers.
Frankly 3000 teachers is maybe 1/3 of what we need. This was not going to make an impact for 90%+ of teachers. There was no movement on salary, and I think what really pissed people off is that there was a free Covid shot included with this offer. To be clear this is the first time the government actually offered teachers anything - the deal that was voted down in the spring was a mediator's recommendation. Teachers soundly rejected it (89.5% NO, 94% turnout). The message, this is an insult, include class size & complexity or student:teacher ratio language or pay us more to tolerate it.
Last week, the government offered the ATA "enhanced mediation" with the caveat that under no circumstances was the mediator to consider class size or student:teacher ratio. The ATA, under clear mandate from their members, said that was unacceptable to members and they would not be participating in mediation that did not include those terms.
The government, knowing they are not in a "winning" position to go to binding arbitration (because every other jurisdiction has this language) could have dictated the terms of arbitration and sent us there. But they wanted to leave nothing to chance. The risk of an arbitrator awarding teachers 5% or 6% was too great, so instead they chose to impose a contract, leave nothing to chance, and use the NWC to block any sort of court challenge. They imposed extremely stiff penalties to essentially make it impossible for the ATA to defy the legislation. The fines on the association amount to 6x what they normally would under Labour Relations Code, the fines on individuals end up being double what the Labour Relations Code says.
They never had any intention to come to a fair deal. When the ATA didn't accept their "enhanced mediation" offer last week, they decided to just put the hammer down and end it - and impose their terms.
Do you think the ATA was surprised with the outcome? If not, could they have negotiated differently? And was the strike effective for teachers if it got them nothing incremental?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulie Walnuts
The fact Gullfoss is not banned for life on here is such an embarrassment. Just a joke.
I have a question for teachers, I hear a lot that they need to buy stuff for their classrooms, what stuff is it?
I was in a discussion with someone in the trades where he was saying that he needs to buy his own tools so the teachers should have to do the same. Since I could not say what the teachers actually buy with their own money I could not overly discuss past that.
When I taught elementary, it was mostly whiteboard markers, paper, TONS of books. Like I spent about $200-$400 a school year on YA novels alone. Other stuff like materials for scientific demos, math manipulatives, games, hand in bins…basically anything that adds extra fun or enrichment in the classroom. The school can provide stuff like notebooks, binders, sticky notes, pencils, etc.
In high school I almost never spent my own money. They had a business office that had basically everything, and a lab technician who can prep solutions and lab equipment for me.
Not sure how you got into that conversation, I don’t speak for all teachers but it wasn’t really a big deal for me. And while I appreciate that you were engaging with someone about this topic, if someone brought that up as a talking point, I would see it as a distraction from the main issue, which is classroom size and complexity, the government’s failure to account for the population growth that they themselves created, and the use of the notwithstanding clause to silence a labour group.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Fan #751
The Oilers won't finish 14th in the West forever.
Eventually a couple of expansion teams will be added which will nestle the Oilers into 16th.
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Point Blank For This Useful Post:
When I taught elementary, it was mostly whiteboard markers, paper, TONS of books. Like I spent about $200-$400 a school year on YA novels alone. Other stuff like materials for scientific demos, math manipulatives, games, hand in bins…basically anything that adds extra fun or enrichment in the classroom. The school can provide stuff like notebooks, binders, sticky notes, pencils, etc.
In high school I almost never spent my own money. They had a business office that had basically everything, and a lab technician who can prep solutions and lab equipment for me.
Not sure how you got into that conversation, I don’t speak for all teachers but it wasn’t really a big deal for me. And while I appreciate that you were engaging with someone about this topic, if someone brought that up as a talking point, I would see it as a distraction from the main issue, which is classroom size and complexity, the government’s failure to account for the population growth that they themselves created, and the use of the notwithstanding clause to silence a labour group.
What I find with this kind of person is they latch onto one thing that kind of over laps with their world and just use that one as a talking point. They don't care about the other things like growth or class size because that is not something that they can relate to in their normal day.
The other thing I hear a lot from these people is teachers are getting a raise but I have not had one in years and they should just be happy to have a job. When I hear things like this I usually just roll my eyes because they are not going to be genuine in a conversation.
Aren't they usually buying supplies for the students that don't have them?
Would be the equivalent of your trades person having to buy tools for the other workers that can't afford them...
Actually, it would more comparable to say that they are bringing consumables to the client that are needed for day to day work. Like an electrician buying wire and donating it to job site. This is unheard of as the electrician would always charge the client for the wire.
Or for an office worker, it would be like going to the store and using your own money to buy pens and paper and whiteboard markers for your meetings. This would also never happen as most companies provide stationary or someone would use a company credit card to buy the office supplies.
