Francis: It's time for the Flames to get serious about bottoming out

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Well the Panthers have nothing the Flames would possibly want back. Basically no prospects and no first round picks until 2028. So I suspect the Flames do not trade him to Florida regardless of whether the Panthers want him.

Suppose Buffalo may be a risk if they think they need Kadri.

I was feeling the same way but increasingly I'm wondering if their 2028 1st might actually be decent. It's a long wait, but their core is getting older and it could be a decent pick.

And then Jack Devine was a late pick but is starting to look like he actually has top 6 upside and is a late 1st quality prospect. He absolutely destroyed in college and he's come into the A at a PPG very early in his career. So you get a player closer to the NHL as well as a 2028 first is way too far out on its own

I wouldn't laugh off their 2028 1st and Jack Devine

[Calgary Highlander]

Jack Devine... drafted two spots after Cade Littler .

[dino7c]

2028 first is too far off, there are better deals out there

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by Freeway

I agree with 90% of this, but arguably Treliving's biggest mistake was thinking the team was further ahead of schedule than they were and adding veteran pieces too early - essentially bailing out of the rebuild too quickly due to early progress. Imagine those Gaudreau/Tkachuk/Monahan teams with one more big young star in the mix.

I would love to see the alternate universe were instead of the Hamilton trade they added a Barzal or Connor in the first, and then maybe a Hintz and Dunn in the second. Dobson and a couple more 2nd rounders a couple years later.

[D as in David]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think for some they'll just pivot to something else to complain about.

Like complaining that he should have started the rebuild two years ago, you know, when he began making rebuilding moves.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by D as in David

Like complaining that he should have started the rebuild two years ago, you know, when he began making rebuilding moves.

When he tried to retain several players on expiring contracts? When he told the players asking if we we were rebuilding that we were not? When he convinced players requesting a trade to give him another year? When the only trade he has made in nearly 16 months was to pick up a couple more midling players?

I respect differing opinions, but the smug tone of many posters to those who want to see a different direction is a bit much. We are the most consistently mediocre team in hockey and we are still maintaining a largely veteran core that got us 1 point out of the playoffs last season. And the media is already reporting on the ownerships and managements desire to maintain UFAs to help sell excitement for the new arena and due to our difficulties acquiring external talent. The concerns that many fans have is not unwarranted.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by kehatch

When he tried to retain several players on expiring contracts?

He made them lowball offers, which they did not take. Other players he did not even bother making an offer to. And some of the players he traded were not on expiring contracts and weren't eligible to receive any offer. Funny how you only remember part of the story.

When he told the players asking if we were rebuilding that we were not?

He lied. There's an old saying that most people nowadays seem never to have heard of: ‘Actions speak louder than words.’

When he convinced players requesting a trade to give him another year? When the only trade he has made in nearly 16 months was to pick up a couple more midling players?

He stood pat when the team was fighting down to the wire for a playoff spot. Any GM would do that, rebuild or no rebuild. You don't dismantle a team while that's happening.

I respect differing opinions, but the smug tone of many posters to those who want to see a different direction is a bit much.

How about the baffled tone of posters to those who don't recognize that the team already is going in exactly the direction they're demanding?

We are the most consistently mediocre team in hockey

Over the last five years, the Flames have finished in the following places overall: 20th, 6th, 16th, 24th, 15th, and so far this year they are 32nd. Some of those results were mediocre, some not, but there is nothing consistent about them at all.

and we are still maintaining a largely veteran core that got us 1 point out of the playoffs last season.

Most of the veterans were already gone by the time last season started. There's a reason why the team kept those who were left.

And the media is already reporting on the ownerships and managements desire to maintain UFAs to help sell excitement for the new arena and due to our difficulties acquiring external talent. The concerns that many fans have is not unwarranted.

The media reports made-up stories with great regularity.

Again, look at actions, not words. This team has got rid of more veterans in a two-year span than any other team in the history of the salary cap. The only reason you think it's not a rebuild is that management has been told not to use that specific word.

I'd love to wrap a can of chicken soup in a label that says ‘.999 FINE GOLD’, and sell it to you for $4,000 an ounce. You'd be getting an absolute steal, wouldn't you? Since you always believe that the label tells the truth about what's inside.

[Jason14h]

You put more effort into that multiple quote reply then the Flames have all season

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

You put more effort into that multiple quote reply then the Flames have all season

Believe me, I didn't. I didn't break a sweat doing that. The Flames still need to take a shower after every game.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Believe me, I didn't. I didn't break a sweat doing that. The Flames still need to take a shower after every game.

I’m not sure they all do TBH

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by kehatch

When he tried to retain several players on expiring contracts? When he told the players asking if we we were rebuilding that we were not? When he convinced players requesting a trade to give him another year? When the only trade he has made in nearly 16 months was to pick up a couple more midling players?

I respect differing opinions, but the smug tone of many posters to those who want to see a different direction is a bit much. We are the most consistently mediocre team in hockey and we are still maintaining a largely veteran core that got us 1 point out of the playoffs last season. And the media is already reporting on the ownerships and managements desire to maintain UFAs to help sell excitement for the new arena and due to our difficulties acquiring external talent. The concerns that many fans have is not unwarranted.

I apologize if I have come across with a smug tone. I really dislike that myself, and if I did, I do apologize.


From my standpoint, I wouldn't believe what you are hearing in the media right now. Conroy hasn't announced a rebuild, so his job is to basically go around making phone calls and seeing what is out there. That's his job, whether or not there is a rebuild. What he hasn't been doing is signing UFAs or making trades for older players to try and get Calgary out of this - and for me, it was really telling that he didn't make a single move at the deadline to help the team. Arguably, and move could have gotten the Flames into the post-season, based on the fact that they lost on a tie-breaker. He stood pat, and he stood pat again in the off-season, rumours be damned.


I share your opinion of things being mediocre. That was my criticism of Trelivng's tenure. However, I disagree with your assessment of the Flames having a large veteran core of players.

(EDIT - I forgot to include the Flames' ages - and will use the age they started off the season at - for instance, Kadri is 35 now, not 34, but I didn't feel like going through every other team's list to adjust for that)

Backlund - 36
Kadri - 34
Weegar - 31
Huberdeau - 32
Coleman - 33
Hanley -34
Lomberg - 30


Plus Andersson who is 28, and is on the trading block.

That's all the 30 year old players + Andersson who is always called part of the core. 2 of them are not difference makers at all (Hanley and Lomberg). Kadri is likely to get traded as well. Coleman might be going. I would argue that if the Flames trade out Kadri, Andersson and Coleman all at once, this might be a more egregious tank than Buffalo's. It is getting there! With some of the media pundits saying today that teams are 'watching Weegar' - that essentially makes Calgary's rebuild a much more egregious tank job than Buffalo's was, in my opinion.

I know you are not really convinced yet, so let's take a look at some rosters right now just to compare how many vets are still on those teams:


================================================== =========
Boston:

Arvidsson - 32
Kuraly - 32
H. Lindholm - 31
Zadorov - 30
E. Lindholm - 30

Pastrnak, is 29, they signed Jeannot who is 28, Zacha is 28, McAvoy is 27, Gekie is 27, Jokiharu is 26... and they still have other decent depth like Mittlestadt, Kastelic, etc. Somehow I feel that they have just as veteran of a lineup, with MORE prime aged players on top of it. Their vets (with the exception of Reeves) are all younger, but still over 30.


================================================== =========


San Jose:

Reeves - 38
Leddy - 34
Orlov - 34
Klingberg - 33
Toffoli - 33
Skinner - 33
Goodrow - 32
Wennberg - 30

They also have a much more proven goalie for backup, with Askarov breaking into the NHL like Wolf did last season.

This is where i don't understand the comments about vets - Calgary has traded out MORE vets than San Jose has. They have less 30+ year olds.

================================================== =========

Chicago:

Foligno - 37
Murphy - 32
Grzelcyk - 31
Lafferty - 30
Dickinson - 30
Mikheyev - 30
Burakovsky - 30
Bertuzzi - 30
Teravainen - 30

I think Chicago is a pretty weak roster overall, but they have Nazar (21) producing just above a PPG, Teravainen at a PPG, Bedard and Donato at just below a PPG - I won't go much deeper since I do feel that they are simply on a burner right now and will fall back down to earth, but Chicago has more vets.

================================================== =========

This is where I have a disconnect with your outlook on the team. I am not trying to be smug, or that I am telling you that I am right therefore you must be wrong. I just don't really understand exactly how you view this team. Flames in my view are essentially a 'burn it to the ground' rebuild - at least arguably. Once Andersson gets traded, things are going to be downright ugly here, as the Flames will end up with exactly zero pairings capable of defending against top players (assuming Bahl and Weegar are on different pairings trying to stabilize things).

I feel 100% confident that if the Flames keep everyone, including Andersson, this ends up being a bottom 5 team. Take Andersson out, and I think it guarantees a bottom 3 finish. Remove Kadri on top of that, and this is easily the last place team. I mean, they are last place already, and keeping everyone together may not change that over the course of this season. I just feel as far as guarantees go, that's how I measure this team as trades happen (which I think they will).

Either way, Conroy will make moves. He is forced to make moves this season. So let's just see what moves he makes, and to what side of the equation those moves push the team towards - competing, or rebuilding.

[GioforPM]

Way too much is made of Conroy offering team friendly contracts to vets and being respectful of Kadri's NMC last year. Conroy was a veteran player, and I think he feels like vets who haven't requested a trade deserve the respect of at least some form of offer, even if it's one both sides know is not going to be accepted.

[browna]

This already may be a lost season but I think there’s a real urgency to not still stink or still be “finding their way” when the new building opens. They don’t have to be contenders but playoffs should be an expectation.

That won’t happen if they are waiting for the magic beans of draft picks to sprout (current and upcoming). And you run the risk of young guys like Wolf and Zary and of course guys like Parekh exposed to (sure get playing time but also) nightly expectations of losing this year and hurting their development.

Said before but I think Conroy is not anywhere where he wanted to be this far into his tenure. I think he’s at least a year behind where he thought he would be.

I think the hope when he took over and allowed the mass exodus for picks that he’d have acquired and attracted some impactful talent this far down the line. Along with the picks and using cap space, and the Flames would be on an upward trajectory to the new building. I don’t think the playoff chase hampered that last year, I think he’s just miscalculated the factors required to make those impactful transactions happen the last 2+ years.

He thought he could get some guys via FA (his talk about Raantnen made it sound like a real plan) and didn’t. The new building effect hasn’t hit the radar of players and agents yet.
Thought he could use cap space to get some picks to flip as trade bait for players, but didn’t/hasn’t yet. A guy like Mantha could’ve brought in a pick, but he got hurt. Etc etc

So now he’s got a team that will struggle and even if they get a top 5 pick this summer, will still have a hard time building around that in a year before the building opens, to be the calibre of team the organization wants, going into the spotlight season of a new building.

[Sandman]

Originally Posted by browna

This already may be a lost season but I think there’s a real urgency to not still stink or still be “finding their way” when the new building opens. They don’t have to be contenders but playoffs should be an expectation.

That won’t happen if they are waiting for the magic beans of draft picks to sprout (current and upcoming). And you run the risk of young guys like Wolf and Zary and of course guys like Parekh exposed to (sure get playing time but also) nightly expectations of losing this year and hurting their development.

Said before but I think Conroy is not anywhere where he wanted to be this far into his tenure. I think he’s at least a year behind where he thought he would be.

I think the hope when he took over and allowed the mass exodus for picks that he’d have acquired and attracted some impactful talent this far down the line. Along with the picks and using cap space, and the Flames would be on an upward trajectory to the new building. I don’t think the playoff chase hampered that last year, I think he’s just miscalculated the factors required to make those impactful transactions happen the last 2+ years.

He thought he could get some guys via FA (his talk about Raantnen made it sound like a real plan) and didn’t. The new building effect hasn’t hit the radar of players and agents yet.
Thought he could use cap space to get some picks to flip as trade bait for players, but didn’t/hasn’t yet. A guy like Mantha could’ve brought in a pick, but he got hurt. Etc etc

So now he’s got a team that will struggle and even if they get a top 5 pick this summer, will still have a hard time building around that in a year before the building opens, to be the calibre of team the organization wants, going into the spotlight season of a new building.

I agree 100%, but if we win the draft lottery, at least the team will have hope to sell to the fans, and a potential superstar in Gavin McKenna. If we landed him, I think tickets will sell like hotcakes. Of course, odds are not in our favour.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Freeway

I agree with 90% of this, but arguably Treliving's biggest mistake was thinking the team was further ahead of schedule than they were and adding veteran pieces too early - essentially bailing out of the rebuild too quickly due to early progress. Imagine those Gaudreau/Tkachuk/Monahan teams with one more big young star in the mix.

They kind of got that though with the Lindholm/Hanifin trade or would have had it had they simply been able to keep Fox.

The Flames left the 18 draft with 2 more guys picked in the top 5 of their rebuild window. By the time the team took off the next year they had Monahan, Lindholm, Bennett, Hanifin, Tkachuk as top 6 picks aged 20-24 and had Gaudreau who was the equivalent of a top 5 pick.

The Hamonic trade was the worst move. So many prime assets for a bottom pairing Dman

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by browna

This already may be a lost season but I think there’s a real urgency to not still stink or still be “finding their way” when the new building opens. They don’t have to be contenders but playoffs should be an expectation.

That won’t happen if they are waiting for the magic beans of draft picks to sprout (current and upcoming). And you run the risk of young guys like Wolf and Zary and of course guys like Parekh exposed to (sure get playing time but also) nightly expectations of losing this year and hurting their development.

Said before but I think Conroy is not anywhere where he wanted to be this far into his tenure. I think he’s at least a year behind where he thought he would be.

I think the hope when he took over and allowed the mass exodus for picks that he’d have acquired and attracted some impactful talent this far down the line. Along with the picks and using cap space, and the Flames would be on an upward trajectory to the new building. I don’t think the playoff chase hampered that last year, I think he’s just miscalculated the factors required to make those impactful transactions happen the last 2+ years.

He thought he could get some guys via FA (his talk about Raantnen made it sound like a real plan) and didn’t. The new building effect hasn’t hit the radar of players and agents yet.
Thought he could use cap space to get some picks to flip as trade bait for players, but didn’t/hasn’t yet. A guy like Mantha could’ve brought in a pick, but he got hurt. Etc etc

So now he’s got a team that will struggle and even if they get a top 5 pick this summer, will still have a hard time building around that in a year before the building opens, to be the calibre of team the organization wants, going into the spotlight season of a new building.

Could Conroy really have expected that any of the picks he acquired or had hoped to acquire were going to have an impact on the NHL roster by now? Trading guys like Mantha, weaponizing cap space etc. are long term moves with no immediate impact.

Maybe the prospect pipeline isn’t where he wanted it to be now, I don’t know. It’s solid but not best in the league good.

Or maybe you’re right, maybe his original hope was that he could have acquired one veteran superstar through trade or free agency. Let’s hope if that was the plan, it has been officially abandoned.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Could Conroy really have expected that any of the picks he acquired or had hoped to acquire were going to have an impact on the NHL roster by now? Trading guys like Mantha, weaponizing cap space etc. are long term moves with no immediate impact.

Maybe the prospect pipeline isn’t where he wanted it to be now, I don’t know. It’s solid but not best in the league good.

Or maybe you’re right, maybe his original hope was that he could have acquired one veteran superstar through trade or free agency. Let’s hope if that was the plan, it has been officially abandoned.

I don't think Conroy is that entrenched in any one strategy. He seems flexible, with his main strategy based on asset management. Every move he makes hopes to make the Flames roster better, with a consideration of the present and the future.

It depends on your definition of "veteran", but Conroy has bene trying to acquire an aged 24ish superstar player. Those are not easy to acquire, and Conroy also isn't willing to bleed out the future to do it.

He's looking at this all pretty logically. If the superstar falls in his lap, great. If not, look towards the high end future assets to acquire the superstar.

[CroFlames]

It's good they are tanking for McKenna, but they should have done it 2 years ago.

[ComixZone]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1982853373188853920

This is why Conroy needs to lean in to the poor start. Fight power with power. Stop being a mediocre, less talented team by design. This league is only getting younger, and it's a star-driven league where what differentiates the haves from the have nots is the few elite players peppered throughout the league.

There's only one repeatable, most-likely way to get that sort of talent while they're young and in their prime. It's at the top of the draft.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

It's good they are tanking for McKenna, but they should have done it 2 years ago.

You mean two years ago when they unloaded Zadorov, Lindholm, Tanev, Hanifin, Markstrom, and Mangiapane in under seven months, after an off-season in which they traded Toffoli without offering him a contract extension? Like that?