Francis: It's time for the Flames to get serious about bottoming out

[Calgary4LIfe]

Two things stick out for me:


1) I love the pressure of the media on the organization here, as well as laying the groundwork for the general public to start becoming more receptive of a rebuild
2) How much more 'rebuilding' can Conroy do?


I realize the 2nd point may be confusing, but if you look at Conroy's body of work all he has done is rebuild. He has shipped-out vets for picks. If you compare the number of vets shipped out for picks/futures, and then compare these to when other teams kick-started their rebuilds, you will notice that Calgary has shipped out more vets than most in a shorter amount of time.


Andersson is, of course, the next name on that list. However, it is no secret that he is on the market.


If Kadri gets traded as well as Andersson (and I think he should this season), then that's starting to trend to the egregious Buffalo tank job for McDavid (https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...000332015.html for reference). That's where I just don't understand where people don't see the Flames in a rebuild NOW (and for the last 2 seasons, kick-started with the before the deadline as the majority of vets got traded out).


I am glad this article is coming out. Eventually Conroy will come out this season and announce that that the Flames are in a rebuild. I still argue that there hasn't been a good time to announce it - he probably didn't want to announce it 2 seasons ago as Calgary would have announced a rebuild based on the fact that nobody wanted to play here - that's a terrible feeling and terrible headlines. Then he couldn't do it last season since the Flames missed the playoffs on the last day on a damn tiebreaker. I am positive he will announce it at some point this season.


I hope more media talks about this, however. It will ease the situation a little bit, and get Calgary's fan base in the state of mind to welcome it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

It was obvious IMO.

I posted right after the Ronni pick that the Flames would regret not taking Hutson.

Most discussion from people before the draft was that Hutson wouldn't even be there at the Flames pick.

It was an obvious example of teams missing on a player that had elite skill level, because he was too small to be an NHL dman.

And I never said they weren't doing that...in fact I think I posted yesterday that the Flames have been good at doing that and have been a +6 surplus in the first 3 rounds of the 2024-2026 NHL draft. They need to keep doing that.

Edit: And nobody said it was obvious to take him earlier that all 30 teams should have picked him in the top 30 or even 45 of the draft...it became obvious from about pick 55 onwards that he was by far the most skilled player left on that draft board.

It's certainly the case that he went way later than all the commenters had him ranked. A whole lot of teams missed the boat, including the Flames.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by Royle9

This is precisely what's happening.

Well, now. That is interesting, isn't it?

[howard_the_duck]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Two things stick out for me:


1) I love the pressure of the media on the organization here, as well as laying the groundwork for the general public to start becoming more receptive of a rebuild
2) How much more 'rebuilding' can Conroy do?


I realize the 2nd point may be confusing, but if you look at Conroy's body of work all he has done is rebuild. He has shipped-out vets for picks. If you compare the number of vets shipped out for picks/futures, and then compare these to when other teams kick-started their rebuilds, you will notice that Calgary has shipped out more vets than most in a shorter amount of time.


Andersson is, of course, the next name on that list. However, it is no secret that he is on the market.


If Kadri gets traded as well as Andersson (and I think he should this season), then that's starting to trend to the egregious Buffalo tank job for McDavid (https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...000332015.html for reference). That's where I just don't understand where people don't see the Flames in a rebuild NOW (and for the last 2 seasons, kick-started with the before the deadline as the majority of vets got traded out).


I am glad this article is coming out. Eventually Conroy will come out this season and announce that that the Flames are in a rebuild. I still argue that there hasn't been a good time to announce it - he probably didn't want to announce it 2 seasons ago as Calgary would have announced a rebuild based on the fact that nobody wanted to play here - that's a terrible feeling and terrible headlines. Then he couldn't do it last season since the Flames missed the playoffs on the last day on a damn tiebreaker. I am positive he will announce it at some point this season.


I hope more media talks about this, however. It will ease the situation a little bit, and get Calgary's fan base in the state of mind to welcome it.

I'm not so sure about this. Even if it's internally understood in some corners of the building as a rebuild, I'm not confident they'll come outright and say it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Two things stick out for me:


1) I love the pressure of the media on the organization here, as well as laying the groundwork for the general public to start becoming more receptive of a rebuild
2) How much more 'rebuilding' can Conroy do?


I realize the 2nd point may be confusing, but if you look at Conroy's body of work all he has done is rebuild. He has shipped-out vets for picks. If you compare the number of vets shipped out for picks/futures, and then compare these to when other teams kick-started their rebuilds, you will notice that Calgary has shipped out more vets than most in a shorter amount of time.


Andersson is, of course, the next name on that list. However, it is no secret that he is on the market.


If Kadri gets traded as well as Andersson (and I think he should this season), then that's starting to trend to the egregious Buffalo tank job for McDavid (https://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/...000332015.html for reference). That's where I just don't understand where people don't see the Flames in a rebuild NOW (and for the last 2 seasons, kick-started with the before the deadline as the majority of vets got traded out).


I am glad this article is coming out. Eventually Conroy will come out this season and announce that that the Flames are in a rebuild. I still argue that there hasn't been a good time to announce it - he probably didn't want to announce it 2 seasons ago as Calgary would have announced a rebuild based on the fact that nobody wanted to play here - that's a terrible feeling and terrible headlines. Then he couldn't do it last season since the Flames missed the playoffs on the last day on a damn tiebreaker. I am positive he will announce it at some point this season.


I hope more media talks about this, however. It will ease the situation a little bit, and get Calgary's fan base in the state of mind to welcome it.

I don't think Conroy has to announce anything. Just keep on mkaing the little moves. I'd add Coleman to Andersson's name on the obvious moves list. In fact, I'd be working on moving him harder than Andersson because the Flames are wing-heavy.

Kadri has to have just the right circumstances - a team he wants to play for and a good price. Pospisil might have value. Farabee, Frost and Sharangovich could but only if their games pick up. Farabee's stats are good but he makes $5M which is a lot to absorb.

Backlund will either retire or be moved in hs third year I bet.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don't think Conroy has to announce anything. Just keep on mkaing the little moves. I'd add Coleman to Andersson's name on the obvious moves list. In fact, I'd be working on moving him harder than Andersson because the Flames are wing-heavy.

Kadri has to have just the right circumstances - a team he wants to play for and a good price. Pospisil might have value. Farabee, Frost and Sharangovich could but only if their games pick up. Farabee's stats are good but he makes $5M which is a lot to absorb.

Backlund will either retire or be moved in hs third year I bet.

You are right - i would be hilarious if the Flames went through a huge rebuild without ever announcing it, right? Teams these days always announce it, and the last time the Flames went through one, they also announced it. It would be funny if Conroy kept trotting out the "we are retooling" phrase. I wouldn't hate it.


Coleman is the only vet that i personally would like to see re-signed, but yeah, I would also assume he will be dealt by next season at the latest.

Kadri for sure has value, which is why I take the position of 'sooner rather than later', as one bad season will make teams feel father time has caught up, and won't want the 3 years tacked-on to that.


Frost I see having some value - cheap contract, and he is a center. They are in short supply, so I can see teams trying to grab him.


Farabee is playing well, but yep, just like you said, that's too much money and he would need to be producing at a good clip for a team to be interested.


Sharangovich is the only player I have a differing opinion of. I think even if he starts producing, he will carry negative value for at least this season. It is too many "good then bad" seasons. He also isn't very physical, doesn't go to hard areas, and hasn't been good defensively either. When he is on his game, he is an absolute sniper, and I think he is a good option on the shoot-out too, but that's just too much term. If he had a longer run of producing last season (I did feel he turned it around, but it was too short of a period), and started this season off well instead of being publicly shamed by Bieksa, then I feel he could have some value. Right now, it certainly feels like even if he has 30 goals to his credit by the deadline, teams will probably be very cool on him because of his term and the lack of an overall game from him. Farabee is an easier pill to swallow with a shorter term, and the way in which he touches many different parts of the game.


I think (and hope) that Sharangovich rebounds and puts together some very good seasons for Calgary in the next few, but I would also love to dump him for free if I could. You need good vets to shoulder the load, and I am starting to question if he is someone that just doesn't fit at all either in the short term or long term. I think the Flames are stuck with him, but I do hope he gets a bit more tenacity in his game at least.

Pospisil I don't think is worth moving. Especially with this new injury, I think his value is minimal. I also think he is the exact sort of player that the Flames should keep - he plays hard, he practices just as hard (Weegar spoke about this), and he trains hard and rubs-off on Honzek (and probably the other prospects) as well. Plus he adds to team speed and is versatile. I think he is great for the rebuild, and not worth trading for what I think the Flames can get back. I would definitely trade him for a 1st of course. Would I trade him for a 2nd? I start wavering, but I am also not sure teams would offer a 2nd at this point. A third seems too little vs the benefits he brings, IMO.

Yep, I 100% - Backlund retires a Flame (unless he wants to chase a cup).

[Roof-Daddy]

Hopefully this slow start gets Kadri thinking about waiving for a trade. Coleman is another one I'd like to see traded. 35 and 34 years old, useful pieces on a contending team and should return some draft picks.

[Roof-Daddy]

Flames currently have 8 picks in the 2026 draft, 5 in the 1st three rounds (2x1st / 1x2nd/ 2x3rd)

Hopefully by the time draft rolls around they have 10-12 picks overall for that draft and 7-8 in the 1st 3 rounds...including their own which could easily be top 3-5. Moving Andersson, Coleman and possibly even Kadri would likely accomplish all of this.

[Aarongavey]

The year the Habs got serious about it (21/22) they did the following in the 2021 offseason before

- signed Mike Hoffman to a 3 year 4.5 million dollar a year UFA contract.
- traded and 1st and a 2nd round pick for Christian Dvorak

If the Flames were going to be serious about this rebuild, Montreal style they would have signed a big named free agent this offseason and traded the Vegas 1st and a 2nd for a 25 year old forward this offseason.

The fact they did not sign a big name free agent and did not trade a 1st and 2nd round pick for a 25 year old forward shows that they are not doing it the Montreal way.

[TrentCrimmIndependent]

Originally Posted by Titan2

Found his account. Or maybe Diane's? Is she still around?

I believe his real account is PuckSlap or something like that (sorry if im thinking of the wrong username).

Always trotted out the dumbest takes then would disappear again.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Which if you’re right is also weird. Let’s test the appetite of something that we’re already in.

I’m also on the fence on the whole “actions” thing. Like, sorta. They traded some guys. Could they have done more? Yes. Did they do nothing? No. Would a half approach ever have worked? No, not IMO.


I know that AaronGavey guy will now chime in and say it’s been the greatest rebuild ever conducted but the problem is nobody believes him and he never provides back up / data to explain why.

It’s pretty clear holding onto Ras was a mistake. It was actually quite obvious as well at the trade deadline. I’m not that smart and these things seem strategically quite obvious. I think what a lot of people are missing is the greed factor. Playoff revenue is too tasty.

The Flames traded 8 veterans for futures (picks and prospects). The great Montreal rebuild, which started with them trading a 1st and a 2nd for Dvorak and signing Hoffman as a UFA involved trading 6 players over a 2 year period. The great Habs rebuild traded fewer players and also involved trading futures to kick it off.

Hope that works for evidence for the 75th time on this board. Do you have any evidence that there is a team that did a bigger rebuild over a 24 month period than the Flames? I will await any team to be cited over a 24 month period that has burned it to the ground more than the Flames.

The actual problem is nobody (yourself included) has ever shown any data to counter the data that I have shared (and shared again here)

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

The Flames traded 8 veterans for futures (picks and prospects).

But they didn't want to! It isn't a rebuild unless you want to! They even made contract offers to some of the players before trading them, that proves it's not a rebuild!

I think I've about summarized the whole position contrary to yours.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

But they didn't want to! It isn't a rebuild unless you want to! They even made contract offers to some of the players before trading them, that proves it's not a rebuild!

I think I've about summarized the whole position contrary to yours.

I think the key I have learned in this thread and from Francis is that to really kick off a rebuild you have to trade away a first and a second 6 months before for a 25 year old player and sign a UFA for 5.3 million dollars a year (the current salary cap equivalent of the 4.5 million the Habs gave Hoffman 6 months before their spectacular rebuild).

Missed opportunity not trading away a 1st and a 2nd this summer and signing a big name UFA. We will never rebuild properly if we continue to miss those opportunities. Montreal wanted to trade their veterans for picks and prospects (unlike the Flames) they just wanted to trade a 1st round pick away 6 months before because that was also a rebuilding move (a move the stubborn Flames seem resistant to doing)

The Habs also throughout their rebuild where they traded 6 vets kept Savard, Gallagher, Armia, Anderson, Dvorak, Drouin the entire time and traded Petry and a 23 year old former 1st round pick for Matheson (a 28 year old dman at the time). So the Flames are messing that up too, they have traded too many vets to be a good rebuilding team like the Habs and have not traded a key vet and say Zary for a 28 year old dman. So many mistakes if we want to truly rebuild like the Habs.

[Matty81]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Wolf, Fox, Mangiapane, Andersson, and then to a lesser extent Pospisil, Dube, Ruzicka, Kylington.

Then you’ve got rookies who are still waiting-and-see territory in Kerins, Kuznetsov, and Stromgren.

I think you’re confusing the issue. Treliving traded away a lot of picks and it’s harder to hit in that scenario. They found lots of talent beyond the 1st round.

Sorry super slow response the day took me away and just getting back to the forum. Those picks are all more than 10 years old except for Wolf sadly. Scouts can't dine out on picks that old unless they are HOFers.

Button and crew have basically only found wolf in the last 10 years outside the 1st round as an impact NHLer.

Hate to be harsh but if it were my business I'd be demanding a better return than that.

[Finger Cookin]

Adam Fox has entered the chat. This should go well.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Matty81

Sorry super slow response the day took me away and just getting back to the forum. Those picks are all more than 10 years old except for Wolf sadly.

Fox and Dube were drafted in 2016, Ruzicka in 2017, Pospisil 2018. Four out of eight players is by no means ‘all’.

[Matty81]

You're right 9 years since last decent draft not 10 but ruzicka and pospisil are pretty meh players to celebrate as draft home runs. I guess they are singles one turned out to be an ahl nhl tweener and pospisil looks like a good 4th liner.


For me the point stands that button and crew for me have not done a great job finding value recently. I'm obviously hoping the last 3 drafts change the narrative

[Manhattanboy]

We have to get serious about bottoming out as opposed to the comical way in which we are doing it now.

[stemit14]

I think so many of us are ready to turn the page on so much of this roster. Not out of hate for the players - I like a lot of the players that I want traded. I’m just ready for young players to be the first ones over the boards in every important situation. Would love it to see the following subtractions to the team with mostly picks and prospects coming back (some won’t return anything at this point):

Andersson
Kadri
Coleman
Sharangovich
Bean

I’m fine running the whole season with something like this:

Coronato-Zary-Huberdeau
Klapka-Frost-Posposil
Honzek-Backlund-Farabee
Lomberg-Morton-Stromgren

Parekh-Weegar
Kuznetzov-Bahl
Hanley-Pachal

Give players big minutes with lots of opportunities in all situations. Do this over the next 2 years and we’ll have a better idea of what players like Zary or Posposil can be. Be fair to Kadri and let him know this is the plan over the next few years. He might not be the first guy over the boards in overtime/powerplays. If he still wants to stay knowing he’ll likely have a diminished role, then I guess they won’t be able to trade him but I wonder if he has a different view if he knew they were going to lean more on young players from now on.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Matty81

You're right 9 years since last decent draft not 10 but ruzicka and pospisil are pretty meh players to celebrate as draft home runs. I guess they are singles one turned out to be an ahl nhl tweener and pospisil looks like a good 4th liner.


For me the point stands that button and crew for me have not done a great job finding value recently. I'm obviously hoping the last 3 drafts change the narrative

They didn't have the picks and think you are missing some.

Pospisil in 2018
Wolf in 2019
2020 wasn't bad with Poirier, Kerins, and Solovoyov who were still good value for where they were picked even if they didn't fully pan out.

2021 and 2022 (no picks) were the only real bare years

2023 onwards are too close to tell yet but look promising.

2023: Morin, Suniev, Lipinski, Hurtig

2024: Basha, Battaglia, Mews, Hoskins, Misa, Jamieson

2025: Wyttenback already looks good