Worst team in the league - Are we "OK" with it?

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Why do you so want to believe something that clearly infuriates you?

Why does the team need to admit fully what they are doing publicly?

Tyler Toffoli wasn't an expiring contract.

This has been argued about a zillion times, but having a contract opening position and then trading the player doesn't negate the value of not negotiating and moving such player.

They weren't signed.

They were moved.

If it was win at all costs that wouldn't have been the case.

Nor would they hold $20M in cap space for two years.
Nor would they not add to a team near a playoff spot at last year's deadline.

I am not the one stretching the truth Bingo. The Flames say they are not in a rebuild. The insiders say the Flames don't believe they are in a rebuild. They try and retain free agents and make big trades to help stay out of a rebuild. They don't make any trades in 15 months.

The conspiracy is that the Flames are secretly in a rebuild but just haven't told anyone.

And I never said the Flames are win at all costs. There is a big gap between winning at all costs and rebuilding. Which is the issue. When other teams are doing one or the othet, and your trying to do both, its tough to compete.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Looking it up ...

Traded on June 26, 2023

Contract signed with Montreal expired on June 30th, 2024.

He played the Jersey/Winnipeg season on the same contract that was used as a Flame.

So what are you saying? He was traded entering the final year of his deal because they couldn’t agree on extension terms just like Lindholm, Hanifin, Zadorov, Tanev but he requested a trade in the offseason so was dealt at the draft. Literally no difference had the Flames dealt Anderson this summer.

[Badgers Nose]

"In their history as the Calgary Flames, from the 1980–81 season through the end of the 2024–25 season, the team has had an average end-of-season divisional standing of 2.94. Their average overall league standing during that same period is approximately 15.65."

So I expect them to return to their normal range. Extremely bad or extremely good is unlikely.

[Ba'alzamon]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So what are you saying? He was traded entering the final year of his deal because they couldn’t agree on extension terms just like Lindholm, Hanifin, Zadorov, Tanev but he requested a trade in the offseason so was dealt at the draft. Literally no difference had the Flames dealt Anderson this summer.

Didn't Toffoli say Conroy never even approached him about an extension?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

"In their history as the Calgary Flames, from the 1980–81 season through the end of the 2024–25 season, the team has had an average end-of-season divisional standing of 2.94. Their average overall league standing during that same period is approximately 15.65."

So I expect them to return to their normal range. Extremely bad or extremely good is unlikely.

That tells you all you need to know about why this franchise has been stuck treading water for most of their Calgary existence.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Ba'alzamon

Didn't Toffoli say Conroy never even approached him about an extension?

Conroy wasn't ready to talk extension, likely because he had Lindholm, Hanafin, Backlund, and others he had to deal with first. So Toffoli requested a trade. At least that is what was said.

[puds]

I think it's pretty hard to argue we aren't in a rebuild. Look at the players out and what we have signed in free agency. Conroy has made a few trades and brought players while expending minimal assets to try and find value with mixed success (frost/farabee).

Last year's roster is definitely bottom 10 in the NHL and probably bottom five. We haven't improved this year.

We would have traded Andersson if we thought we were getting reasonable value.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I am not the one stretching the truth Bingo. The Flames say they are not in a rebuild. The insiders say the Flames don't believe they are in a rebuild. They try and retain free agents and make big trades to help stay out of a rebuild. They don't make any trades in 15 months.

The conspiracy is that the Flames are secretly in a rebuild but just haven't told anyone.

And I never said the Flames are win at all costs. There is a big gap between winning at all costs and rebuilding. Which is the issue. When other teams are doing one or the othet, and your trying to do both, its tough to compete.

Not sure I'm stretching any truth.

I don't care as much about what insiders say about a team they barely cover.

I don't need the hockey team to come out with direct quotes to substantiate when I already see them doing (cap space, not adding when close, moving Toffoli and Markstrom). Watching Maloney a couple of years ago made it pretty obvious to me that they fear a Young Guns empty dome scenario and are quoted appropriately.

We also have comments like Conroy on Sportsnet 960 saying "Iggy wanted to know how many draft picks are too many draft picks" which to me was very telling of a management group very much talking about a rebuild behind the scenes.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

So what are you saying? He was traded entering the final year of his deal because they couldn’t agree on extension terms just like Lindholm, Hanifin, Zadorov, Tanev but he requested a trade in the offseason so was dealt at the draft. Literally no difference had the Flames dealt Anderson this summer.

It was said it was an expiring contract, but it wasn't. I'm saying that!

From reports at the time Toffoli wanted too many years and was traded.

And agreed on Andersson and I think he would have had his price been met, but he still wouldn't be an expiring contract.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That tells you all you need to know about why this franchise has been stuck treading water for most of their Calgary existence.

Wouldn't we need to know the average for other franchises over 45 years and see how different they are?

I mean the team with 91 points for 20 straight years is the same as the team with 81 points ten time and 101 points ten times but they're not the same.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Conroy wasn't ready to talk extension, likely because he had Lindholm, Hanafin, Backlund, and others he had to deal with first. So Toffoli requested a trade. At least that is what was said.

So if he offers a contract than he didn't want to trade them and therefore gets zero credit for trading them.

If he doesn't offer them a contract he still doesn't get credit for trading the player because he's too busy trying to sign other players that he will eventually trade but not get credit and avoid a rebuild.

What is the path to getting credit for moving assets for futures and getting stamped as a rebuild?

[PepsiFree]

Team that isn’t rebuilding trades and releases the majority of their veterans, picked 7 times in the first two rounds over the last two years, is trotting out a teenager at the end of games as their only offensive hope, has a 20 year old rookie racking short handed minutes, has prototypical 3rd/4th liners competing for the scoring lead, is trotting out their second year goaltender through back to backs with an AHL backup as their NHL backups, and sits in last place.

We’re great at not rebuilding. Whatever this is let’s keep it going.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It was said it was an expiring contract, but it wasn't. I'm saying that!

How wasn't it a expiring contract?

When it's the last year of the deal that's expiring. They traded him at the draft with 1 year left on his contract. I guess technically it had 1 year and 6 days left on it as contracts roll over on July 1st.

If the Oilers traded McD this offseason it would have been because he had an expiring contract. Isn't this the exact scenario when the Flames trade Toffoli?

What am i missing?

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Bingo

So if he offers a contract than he didn't want to trade them and therefore gets zero credit for trading them.

If he doesn't offer them a contract he still doesn't get credit for trading the player because he's too busy trying to sign other players that he will eventually trade but not get credit and avoid a rebuild.

What is the path to getting credit for moving assets for futures and getting stamped as a rebuild?

I am not following your logic. I didn't credit or criticize Conroy on the Toffoli trade.

Conroy is doing what he is saying he is doing. Trying to "retool" or "get younger" while also trying to keep the Flames reasonably competitive. He made some moves to that end. But some of us believe he needs to fully commit to a rebuild, and we keep getting told that the Flames have.

Its the usual circular debate. We aren't debating if the Flames SHOULD commit to a rebuild. Instead, the debate is IF the Flame are committed to a rebuild. The Flames and insiders say the Flames are not, and many of the Flames actions and attempted actions say they are not. But the debate rages on.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Team that isn’t rebuilding trades and releases the majority of their veterans, picked 7 times in the first two rounds over the last two years, is trotting out a teenager at the end of games as their only offensive hope, has a 20 year old rookie racking short handed minutes, has prototypical 3rd/4th liners competing for the scoring lead, is trotting out their second year goaltender through back to backs with an AHL backup as their NHL backups, and sits in last place.

We’re great at not rebuilding. Whatever this is let’s keep it going.

If this is a retool and a commitment to winning I say keep it up. The next win now move will almost certainly be trading Rasmus for a 1st and a prospect or two. Possibly moving other veterans. But because the flames did not say they were rebuilding they must not be.

Interestingly the only team to ever say they were doing that was the New York Rangers. 15 months after they launched their public rebuild they traded a 1st and two seconds for two players to help them now and signed a big name free agent as part of their rebuilding efforts. The Flames are so anti rebuild that they refuse to trade 1st round picks for players to help now and do nothing on the free agent market. The Flames are also moving far far more veterans than the Rangers did as part of their retool efforts whereas the Rangers kept far more older players as part of their obvious rebuilding efforts because they sent a letter after all.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I am not following your logic. I didn't credit or criticize Conroy on the Toffoli trade.

Conroy is doing what he is saying he is doing. Trying to "retool" or "get younger" while also trying to keep the Flames reasonably competitive. He made some moves to that end. But some of us believe he needs to fully commit to a rebuild, and we keep getting told that the Flames have.

Its the usual circular debate. We aren't debating if the Flames SHOULD commit to a rebuild. Instead, the debate is IF the Flame are committed to a rebuild. The Flames and insiders say the Flames are not, and many of the Flames actions and attempted actions say they are not. But the debate rages on.

This is the crux of where there is disagreement
Some see ample evidence, based on their actions, that they are re-building
Others don't see it that way, including explaining those actions as only being done against pending UFAs.

Not sure anyone is going to bring those two sides together.
But that's crux of it.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

If this is a retool and a commitment to winning I say keep it up. The next win now move will almost certainly be trading Rasmus for a 1st and a prospect or two. Possibly moving other veterans. But because the flames did not say they were rebuilding they must not be.

Interestingly the only team to ever say they were doing that was the New York Rangers. 15 months after they launched their public rebuild they traded a 1st and two seconds for two players to help them now and signed a big name free agent as part of their rebuilding efforts. The Flames are so anti rebuild that they refuse to trade 1st round picks for players to help now and do nothing on the free agent market.

The reverse psychology rebuild. All of our actual actions and the results suggest rebuild, but if we never say rebuild and if we reportedly try to sign guys, even if they later come out and say they would’ve signed but never got an offer or one they’d sign, we’re not rebuilding!

If we can shore up a top five pick and add another couple 1-2 round picks through trade without ever rebuilding we’re geniuses.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I dont want them anywhere near the lottery
Stay away
A 15 or 16 finish will do fine

Oilers traded their first for Wlallman and gave him 7x7 lol...Im OK with the Oilers being last

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Oilers traded their first for Wlallman and gave him 7x7 lol...Im OK with the Oilers being last

Its conditional top 12 -They can defer

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Its conditional top 12 -They can defer

Sheeeeeit
Okay 13th it is

I joke but they have had the easiest sched in the league and have 5 points