October 6 - So it Begins - The Alberta Teacher Strike

[you&me]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

The whole public-partially-funding-private argument seems to be a bit of a scapegoat bogeyman.

Agreed. There should be enough to adequately fund education for everyone.

I think having equivocal private/public per student funding is reasonable. Its not as though the parents of private students aren't paying taxes, in fact based on demographic, they are paying more taxes per household. Is it unfair if some of their taxes are equally allocated to their own child's education?

Those are my feelings as well, even though it's not quite equal, but 70%.

It's no secret that having a parallel private system decants the strain on limited public ressources. Further to the latter, I'd wager that the required increase in private school fees ensuing from subtracting all public subsidization, would force a majority of private students back into public schools as the increased cost crossess a major threshold (an increase of >12k$ after tax income is still alot for most in the top 25th percentile). Suddenly dumping 20000+ students back into the public system would be a huge logistical problem on top of the prexisting over crowding etc. Would this increased public cost really offset much of the savings? How much surplus are you actually adding back into the buget if you just converted the private subsidy into public school cost? And if there are any meaningful savings, would those actually be passed on to fund the public system? With this government you might just end up back at the status quo.

The subsidy amounts to about $8,000 per student, which is still a lot in after-tax income, especially for families that have more than one child in private.

Using your example of 20,000 students switching back to public if the funding subsidy was cut (which may be conservative) would mean a net gain of about $300mm in funding to the public system, or $416 per student... half of what it would take to reach the funding level of the second worst province, NB.

Stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.

[moncton golden flames]

Partially funding private schools is part of the problem, cut it and put that money back into the public system. The private side can absorb the loss of funding, the pockets are deep enough. If they can't absorb it, then welcome back to the public side that is more properly funded.

The UCP is trying to kill public health and education, and I'm tired of it.

[fotze2]

Originally Posted by NuclearFart

The whole public-partially-funding-private argument seems to be a bit of a scapegoat bogeyman.

I think having equivocal private/public per student funding is reasonable. Its not as though the parents of private students aren't paying taxes, in fact based on demographic, they are paying more taxes per household. Is it unfair if some of their taxes are equally allocated to their own child's education?

It's no secret that having a parallel private system decants the strain on limited public ressources. Further to the latter, I'd wager that the required increase in private school fees ensuing from subtracting all public subsidization, would force a majority of private students back into public schools as the increased cost crossess a major threshold (an increase of >12k$ after tax income is still alot for most in the top 25th percentile). Suddenly dumping 20000+ students back into the public system would be a huge logistical problem on top of the prexisting over crowding etc. Would this increased public cost really offset much of the savings? How much surplus are you actually adding back into the buget if you just converted the private subsidy into public school cost? And if there are any meaningful savings, would those actually be passed on to fund the public system? With this government you might just end up back at the status quo.

I don't think it would flood the public system that much, I would still pick up the incremental tab of the $0.14 than put my kid back in public. It's negligible dollars.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by puffnstuff

That coal company settlement money has to come from somewhere... so **** them kids

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

Partially funding private schools is part of the problem, cut it and put that money back into the public system. The private side can absorb the loss of funding, the pockets are deep enough. If they can't absorb it, then welcome back to the public side that is more properly funded.

Why would the UCP do that though? Those rich families have likely donated millions to their coffers, they're not going to do anything to piss them off. And they know that no matter what they do, they're still going to get re-elected because so many in this province are simply incapable of voting for anything else. The UCP are acting like bullies with nothing to fear in these negotiations because ever since they got into power there has never been any fear of negative consequences

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

Partially funding private schools is part of the problem, cut it and put that money back into the public system. The

I have no idea to calculate the numbers, but taking the money out of the private school system doesn't return an exact equivalent amount of dolars back to the public system.

Some of those private school kids would them go to the public system, and for those students, the province would them be spending MORE per student.

Just a random thought.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

Why would the UCP do that though? Those rich families have likely donated millions to their coffers, they're not going to do anything to piss them off. And they know that no matter what they do, they're still going to get re-elected because so many in this province are simply incapable of voting for anything else. The UCP are acting like bullies with nothing to fear in these negotiations because ever since they got into power there has never been any fear of negative consequences

If the UCP did the right thing for the public and defunded the private schools, would all those rich families all of a sudden vote differently? I doubt it. Would they be pissed off, likely, but leopards don't change their spots. These families won't all of a sudden start voting NDP to teach the UCP a lesson. But, the reasoning you used is the scapegoat answer the UCP would use to justify their stance of not changing anything.

Either way, the current government is not doing their job of looking after the public systems. They are only looking after their own and it's disgusting.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I have no idea to calculate the numbers, but taking the money out of the private school system doesn't return an exact equivalent amount of dolars back to the public system.

Some of those private school kids would them go to the public system, and for those students, the province would them be spending MORE per student.

Just a random thought.

So, because we can't get 100% of the money we need in one fell swoop, it's not worth getting back?

To steal and modify a quote from another poster (you&me)... we need to pick up dimes so they add up to dollars.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by moncton golden flames

So, because we can't get 100% of the money we need in one fell swoop, it's not worth getting back?

To steal and modify a quote from another poster (you&me)... we need to pick up dimes so they add up to dollars.

The problem is, I don't think you're likely getting any dimes from that policy change, which makes it more like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm pretty confident a huge percentage of kids would flow back to the public system in that situation, probably close to 70% of them. And the ones most likely to end up back in the public system are the most expensive kids, the ones whose parents are struggling to pay for private education because their kids have complex needs, autism, dyslexia, etc.

Even in that situation where you break even on the operating funding, you now have to find schools for tens of thousands of new kids and pay for those. On top of the huge number of schools we're already short.

I have a really close friend that has a kid with severe dyslexia that was basically ignored in public school. He's at a private school (and they are legit struggling to pay for it) and doing better but still not great. If his tuition goes up 8k per year back to the community school in gen pop he goes.

[you&me]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The problem is, I don't think you're likely getting any dimes from that policy change, which makes it more like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm pretty confident a huge percentage of kids would flow back to the public system in that situation, probably close to 70% of them. And the ones most likely to end up back in the public system are the most expensive kids, the ones whose parents are struggling to pay for private education because their kids have complex needs, autism, dyslexia, etc.

Even in that situation where you break even on the operating funding, you now have to find schools for tens of thousands of new kids and pay for those. On top of the huge number of schools we're already short.

I have a really close friend that has a kid with severe dyslexia that was basically ignored in public school. He's at a private school (and they are legit struggling to pay for it) and doing better but still not great. If his tuition goes up 8k per year back to the community school in gen pop he goes.

There's definitely a wider range of private school students than the often cited "rich kids"... Lots of families are making big sacrifices to address a multitude of needs for their children...

These aren't all high-achieving kids from rich families that will all of a sudden start pouring money into their public schools through fundraising and donations and everything is roses and rainbows. More likely it will be the families with challenged children that are already stretched financially returning to the public stream.

I could easily envision a scenario where the makeup of the children forced to return to the public system would be a net-negative overall.

[woob]

I'd be 100% fine with private schools losing all government funding and/or disappearing. If you have a properly funded public school system, with good managment, competent school boards, and progressive/modern education policy, you can fill the gap that private schools are fufilling. And the below doesn't need to have a dedicated school. They could be appropriately funded and staffed programs within any school in the public system.
- Schooling with specific focus; Arts, Technology, Theatre, Sports, etc.
- Schooling for nuerodivergent children.
- Schooling for new Canadians/refugees/etc.

I think the inclusive policies could use some work. Not all individuals need to be within the same class base, but perhaps you have shared classes for certain things, to promote some inclusive policy but still make sure you're directing appropriate supports/classes to those students with whatever challenges they have.

And to be clear, I'm just a parent expressing thoughts and ideas. I have no experience in this and fully recognize that. My ideas could be bad.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I'm pretty confident a huge percentage of kids would flow back to the public system in that situation, probably close to 70% of them. And the ones most likely to end up back in the public system are the most expensive kids, the ones whose parents are struggling to pay for private education because their kids have complex needs, autism, dyslexia, etc.

I don't know if that's a given at all. Obviously everyone's situation is different, but BC has the biggest share of students in private/independent schools in the country (a rate 3x that of Alberta), but the funding here is a fair bit lower than Alberta.

There are different levels of funding depending on the school (ranging from 0% to 50%), but the latest data I've seen shows the weighted average funding level for private schools in BC being only about 40% of what public schools receive per student.

So if BC can have 3x as many private school students while providing barely over 1/2 the funding per student that Alberta does, then I don't think reduced government funding would necessarily push the majority of private school students back into the public system.

[CFO]

Originally Posted by woob

I'd be 100% fine with private schools losing all government funding and/or disappearing. If you have a properly funded public school system, with good managment, competent school boards, and progressive/modern education policy, you can fill the gap that private schools are fufilling. And the below doesn't need to have a dedicated school. They could be appropriately funded and staffed programs within any school in the public system.
- Schooling with specific focus; Arts, Technology, Theatre, Sports, etc.
- Schooling for nuerodivergent children.
- Schooling for new Canadians/refugees/etc.

I think the inclusive policies could use some work. Not all individuals need to be within the same class base, but perhaps you have shared classes for certain things, to promote some inclusive policy but still make sure you're directing appropriate supports/classes to those students with whatever challenges they have.

And to be clear, I'm just a parent expressing thoughts and ideas. I have no experience in this and fully recognize that. My ideas could be bad.

I would be ok too BUT teachers need be help accountant. IE - if you aren't up to snuff you can be fired and replaced. Extra money = extra accountability.

[Fuzz]

I think it's ridiculous to argue that because the government has so thoroughly ####ed up the public system, we are required to fund a private system to take up the slack, and that the public system would crumble if those high needs students came back.


Dude. That's the ####ing problem. Letting them off the hook so they can do more of it is such a failure in government and by voters I can't even comprehend how these are logical positions to argue.


Fix the ####ing public system already, and if they aren't going to do that, vote the mother####ers out! So dumb.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by opendoor

I don't know if that's a given at all. Obviously everyone's situation is different, but BC has the biggest share of students in private/independent schools in the country (a rate 3x that of Alberta), but the funding here is a fair bit lower than Alberta.

There are different levels of funding depending on the school (ranging from 0% to 50%), but the latest data I've seen shows the weighted average funding level for private schools in BC being only about 40% of what public schools receive per student.

So if BC can have 3x as many private school students while providing barely over 1/2 the funding per student that Alberta does, then I don't think reduced government funding would necessarily push the majority of private school students back into the public system.

Median net worth in BC is 69% higher than it is AB - the combination of their housing market being bonkers for a generation and huge numbers of wealthy immigrants means that the % of people with significant wealth is much higher in BC than AB. And the really rich are the ones you keep, the upper middle class kids are the ones who come back to the public system.

Will the super-rich keep their kids in private school if it goes from 40k to 50k. Probably.

Will the upper middle class family struggling to send the learning disabled kid to specialized school still be able to if it goes from 20k to 30k? Less likely.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I think it's ridiculous to argue that because the government has so thoroughly ####ed up the public system, we are required to fund a private system to take up the slack, and that the public system would crumble if those high needs students came back.


Dude. That's the ####ing problem. Letting them off the hook so they can do more of it is such a failure in government and by voters I can't even comprehend how these are logical positions to argue.


Fix the ####ing public system already, and if they aren't going to do that, vote the mother####ers out! So dumb.

If they fix the public system a huge % of kids will migrate back from private anyway. Tearing down the private system doesn't fix the public system.

And money is fungible. They could use the heritage trust fund money, the coal settlement money, the pipeline money, or any other source of money to fix public education. The small amount of money that goes to private schools isn't enough to fix public education, and is the worst possible source for the money, because it's the only source that comes with increasing the burdens on the system if you take it.

Adding a PST: no new students to manage
Stop wasting money on stupid ideological projects: no new students
Heritage trust fund money: no new students
Cut funding to private school: tons of new students into a system that is already overburdened.

[moncton golden flames]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The problem is, I don't think you're likely getting any dimes from that policy change, which makes it more like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm pretty confident a huge percentage of kids would flow back to the public system in that situation, probably close to 70% of them. And the ones most likely to end up back in the public system are the most expensive kids, the ones whose parents are struggling to pay for private education because their kids have complex needs, autism, dyslexia, etc.

Even in that situation where you break even on the operating funding, you now have to find schools for tens of thousands of new kids and pay for those. On top of the huge number of schools we're already short.

I have a really close friend that has a kid with severe dyslexia that was basically ignored in public school. He's at a private school (and they are legit struggling to pay for it) and doing better but still not great. If his tuition goes up 8k per year back to the community school in gen pop he goes.

I can't prove any percentage, but 70% seems wildly dramatic.

If all those kids who are in private schools need more support when going back to the public schools, then wouldn't we have affluent families with the ability to lobby their UCP buddies for more funding?

With your proposed 70% of the kids returning to the public side, then all of a sudden you're going to have mostly empty private schools. The leftover private kids will consolidate and the empty seats/buildings left behind can get absorbed into the public system. I don't think the logistics of this would be a major hurdle to overcome. Not saying it would be easy, but I feel it would be possible. I liken it to the empty office towers downtown being converted to condos. Erase a surplus by having a need absorb it.

Sorry to hear that your friend has those struggles, I know these are real kids with real problems and no kid should be left behind. Can you imagine how many kids in the public system face similar scenarios without their parents ability to afford smaller class sizes and more personalized help? Maybe with a properly funded public system kids like this wouldn't have to pay gobs of money to get their needs met by private institutions.

Private schools = Private funding

[Flames0910]

There were a handful of teachers out on the corner memorial/10th on the commute home today.

Lots of folks honking for them. I was on my bike so gave them a ring of the bell while riding by which got a laugh.

[Fuzz]

I get that their decisions have put us into this position, I'm saying let's not pretend it's a good solution for the future. And ya, I get whatever happens here is a band aid until the next disaster, so maybe now would be a good time to work on a real plan. I know. Fantasy.

[moncton golden flames]

Boom, quick ChatGPT says Alberta subsidized the oil and gas industry by over 2 billion. We got oil, you want it, come and get it, you don't need our help anymore.

We properly fund education and healthcare for ALL needs.

"​Annual Subsidies: One report estimated that Alberta's fossil fuel subsidies totaled CAD 1.32 billion in the fiscal year 2020/21.
​Specific Subsidies: Another analysis breaks down some of the support, estimating Alberta's:
​Crown royalty reductions at around CAD 1.136 billion (in a previous year)."

https://www.iisd.org/publications/bl...inces?hl=en-CA

https://www.iisd.org/articles/unpack...s-faq?hl=en-CA