Canadian Federal Politics Thread v5

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Let Canada Post disappear into the ether.

The service will be picked up by a private company that has to manage to a profit and will pay corporate taxes which will contribute to the government's revenue.

And Canada Post won't lose $800M per year in tax-payer's money.

It will be a substantial swing to the positive.

Son, who do you think pays private delivery services that have profits to make?

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Son, who do you think pays private delivery services that have profits to make?

Don't call me son, it's belittling. Be an adult.

We would of course. But at least it's going to an entity that will contribute tax revenue by being profitable rather than being propped up by the government because it isn't making a profit.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The services are already being plucked by private interests to the point that Canada Post can't compete. They probably should have adapted in a more progressive way, but it is what it is now.

The problem is that if/when they completely disappear, private services will control the entire market, and that means costs will go up while service quality will go down.

I say that not knowing for sure (and Canada Post certainly has its own issues), but this is pretty standard fare when you lose publicly funded services.

I don't know what the solution is here, but going on strike again just continues to erode public opinion and demonstrates how much Canadians are able to get by without your services, even if there is a bit of cost and sacrifice.

Canada Post has gone on strike twice in one year. That's pretty terrible service if you ask me.

Private companies in my experience provide a better quality of service than government. They have to be efficient, and if they aren't good at what they do a competitor will come and replace them.

Public entities have no competition, so they don't need to be efficient.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by simmer2

We would of course. But at least it's going to an entity that will contribute tax revenue by being profitable rather than being propped up by the government because it isn't making a profit.

Originally Posted by simmer2

Canada Post has gone on strike twice in one year. That's pretty terrible service if you ask me.

Private companies in my experience provide a better quality of service than government. They have to be efficient, and if they aren't good at what they do a competitor will come and replace them.

Public entities have no competition, so they don't need to be efficient.

Young man, perhaps you ought to do a bit of research on what actually happens when it comes to quality, cost, and efficiency when services we all require and cannot simply “opt out of” are privatized.

Insurance, transit, telecoms, lab testing, care homes, highway maintenance. Plenty of examples.

If you want to pay more for less then by all means, be a good person and take your extra money and donate it somewhere of use. But it seems extremely silly to just throw the money away. I mean Canada Post already has competition and, quite often, it’s the cheapest by quite a bit. Do you think removing the cheapest is suddenly going to make the competitors lower their prices further? lol

Perhaps you could show some math to make a case for it.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Yamer

The services are already being plucked by private interests to the point that Canada Post can't compete. They probably should have adapted in a more progressive way, but it is what it is now.

The problem is that if/when they completely disappear, private services will control the entire market, and that means costs will go up while service quality will go down.

I say that not knowing for sure (and Canada Post certainly has its own issues), but this is pretty standard fare when you lose publicly funded services.

I don't know what the solution is here, but going on strike again just continues to erode public opinion and demonstrates how much Canadians are able to get by without your services, even if there is a bit of cost and sacrifice.

I'm actually less concerned with costs going up in a private market (so long as there is competition). I think the bigger issue would be that no one would be interested in providing affordable service to rural areas or providing other less profitable services.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Young man, perhaps you ought to do a bit of research on what actually happens when it comes to quality, cost, and efficiency when services we all require and cannot simply “opt out of” are privatized.

Insurance, transit, telecoms, lab testing, care homes, highway maintenance. Plenty of examples.

If you want to pay more for less then by all means, be a good person and take your extra money and donate it somewhere of use. But it seems extremely silly to just throw the money away. I mean Canada Post already has competition and, quite often, it’s the cheapest by quite a bit. Do you think removing the cheapest is suddenly going to make the competitors lower their prices further? lol

Perhaps you could show some math to make a case for it.

Canada Post is cheap, and it loses $800M per year. Which means we are subsidizing it as tax payers to the tune of an additional $800M per year. Not sure how that's considered the 'cheapest' by quite a bit.

Maybe you can tell me how that math works.

[simmer2]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I'm actually less concerned with costs going up in a private market (so long as there is competition). I think the bigger issue would be that no one would be interested in providing affordable service to rural areas or providing other less profitable services.

If there is demand, a company will offer a service. Folks will pay less in taxes going toward Canada Post, which means they'll have more money to pay for a private service.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Ashartus

I'm actually less concerned with costs going up in a private market (so long as there is competition). I think the bigger issue would be that no one would be interested in providing affordable service to rural areas or providing other less profitable services.

That's basically it. There is no private business model that can provide a service like this to communities that are rural, remote, etc. Sometimes the government needs to provide a service to its citizens where private business can't or won't. That's essentially what governments do.

That being said, Canada Post needs to change. I think that the government's proposals make sense and may help Canada Post survive. It will never be profitable - that's not the point. It is a government service. But it needs to stop bleeding money.

Super mailboxes. Great. I've had one for my entire adult life. I check it once every week, or two, or three. Does anyone really need daily mail delivery? 3 times a week is still plenty. Hell - make it weekly. I was disappointed when the government stopped the last super mailbox project - it was a step backwards and eliminated one of the pathways to efficiency.

Of course, the union doesn't like that because super mailboxes are already contracted out, are more efficient, etc. I don't like the thought of people losing their jobs, but I tend to agree with the government on this one as the current model is not sustainable. So adapt now and make some tough choices, or collapse later.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

That being said, Canada Post needs to change. I think that the government's proposals make sense and may help Canada Post survive. It will never be profitable - that's not the point. It is a government service. But it needs to stop bleeding money.

Super mailboxes. Great. I've had one for my entire adult life. I check it once every week, or two, or three. Does anyone really need daily mail delivery? 3 times a week is still plenty. Hell - make it weekly. I was disappointed when the government stopped the last super mailbox project - it was a step backwards and eliminated one of the pathways to efficiency.

I agree. For residential mail we don't need 5 day/week delivery. Once or twice a week to my community mailbox and I'm happy. Maybe business mail remains 5 days/week. A few changes and they could substantially cut costs while still providing essential services.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by simmer2

If there is demand, a company will offer a service. Folks will pay less in taxes going toward Canada Post, which means they'll have more money to pay for a private service.

That's....not exactly how it works. The minute amount you pay in taxes specifically towards a public service isn't equalized to the point that not paying it balances out to pay for privatization.

The reason Canada Post doesn't make money is for the same reason the US Postal Service doesn't: they are a public service. It's not a revenue stream. It's an investment by citizens into an essential, universal service.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Canada Post is cheap, and it loses $800M per year. Which means we are subsidizing it as tax payers to the tune of an additional $800M per year. Not sure how that's considered the 'cheapest' by quite a bit.

Maybe you can tell me how that math works.

Happy to.

Assuming the $800M remains despite the changes the government is suggesting, spread out over 32M taxpayers you’re looking at $25 per year.

Currently, it costs about $1.44 to send a letter in Canada via Canada Post.
For a regular small parcel, it’s about $15.

For Fedex, it’s about $12 to send a letter, and $25 to send the same sized parcel using their cheapest shipping methods.

15+1.44 =16.44
12+25=37
37-16.44=20.56

The additional cost for two letters and a parcel shipped via Fedex instead of Canada Post is about $30.

Congratulations! You saved $25 and outran your saving in just three small packages!

Let’s be extremely generous and assume all of the packages Canada Post ships are small, and pretend they were all shipping by Fedex instead:

In 2023 that was around 300 million packages. If each costs $10 more than that’s an easy $3B. $3B divided by 32M taxpayers is about $95.

I don’t know about you but I’m pretty sure I’d rather pay $25 than $95, and that’s assuming Fedex and the like don’t increase costs once the lowest cost player is out of the game… like private corps have done in the majority of cases where the low cost public option was removed.

Now you go. Let’s see your math.

[PepsiFree]

Plus, suggesting that a for-profit entity would actually come in cheaper while also complaining about the cost required just to keep Canada Post balanced is hilarious.

Like some for-profit company is just going to come in and operate at a loss for the feels. LOL

[simmer2]

Check out this made in Canada solution for shipping.

https://chitchats.com/pricing

A lot less than what you quoted.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Check out this made in Canada solution for shipping.

https://chitchats.com/pricing

A lot less than what you quoted.

Canada Post has a charter that requires it to do a few things that private shipping companies do not. It has to provide universal service. This means that it has to deliver to every residential and business address in Canada, including rural ones. In addition, it can’t close rural post offices and has to charge uniform letter postage rates. This means it can’t charge more for delivering letters to remote areas, even if doing so is more costly.

At the same time, Canada Post has to run a profit. The crown corporation can’t use government revenue to subsidize postal routes. This means that it has to operate a lot of unprofitable postal routes, which translates into more expensive postage for everyone in the country

The Formula for Expensive Postage in Canada
So at the end of the day the formula is as follows:

Geography + Universal Service + Affordable rates for rural areas = More expensive postage.

The U.S. has cheaper postage because it has less geography, more dense, and it is limited in how much it can raise postage rates.

How to Get Cheaper Shipping in Canada?

Shipping companies other than Canada Post can offer lower rates by two methods. They can remove either the universal service part of the equation or charge more for delivery to rural areas. Fedex for instance will add out-of-delivery area surcharges when delivering to some rural addresses. When they do ship to these areas, they often will use Canada Post for final delivery. However prices are very much all over the map and depend on the region. Geography is still a constraint.

Yes by focusing on urban centers and not providing a universal service you can post dramatically cheaper rates.

[simmer2]

Canada's deficit this year is going to be $100B + likely.

It sucks, but at some point, things have to get cut.

80% of Canadians live urban, 20% rural. Maybe those 20% could get to a more urban location once a week to pick up mail.

And most critical mail now (banks, govt) have moved to e-statements. So it's arguable how necessary mail is even becoming.

I don't know exactly what the solutions are, but doing everything for everyone is not sustainable for Canada

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Check out this made in Canada solution for shipping.

https://chitchats.com/pricing

A lot less than what you quoted.

Yeah and you can hand deliver a letter to your neighbor for free. Just because you can come up with an example doesn’t mean it’s relevant to the economics of shipping at the scale that Canada Post does (and a little research into that particular shipping company would probably have made you avoid using them as your example, since they basically disprove several of your positions alone).

If you have an opinion you didn’t come to based on real information or understand of the situation or the economics behind it and you’re not willing to actually consider information that would help you form a more insightful opinion, why hold an opinion in the first place?

If you don’t want to feel belittled then having to have everything explained to you and ignoring it when it is probably hurts your cause.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Canada's deficit this year is going to be $100B + likely.

It sucks, but at some point, things have to get cut.

80% of Canadians live urban, 20% rural. Maybe those 20% could get to a more urban location once a week to pick up mail.

And most critical mail now (banks, govt) have moved to e-statements. So it's arguable how necessary mail is even becoming.

I don't know exactly what the solutions are, but doing everything for everyone is not sustainable for Canada

So quit arguing that the private sector does it better and start your argument that it’s non-essential. Because it appears that you are conceding that private delivery is more efficient for the same scope of services offered.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Don't call me son, it's belittling. Be an adult.

Umm…

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by simmer2

Canada's deficit this year is going to be $100B + likely.

It sucks, but at some point, things have to get cut.

80% of Canadians live urban, 20% rural. Maybe those 20% could get to a more urban location once a week to pick up mail.

And most critical mail now (banks, govt) have moved to e-statements. So it's arguable how necessary mail is even becoming.

I don't know exactly what the solutions are, but doing everything for everyone is not sustainable for Canada

If you don't know the solution then stop advocating for something stupid. (Note: before you get all , I did not say you are stupid, I said what you are advocating for is stupid). If we need to pay for services, how about taxing rich people and corporations more instead of giving them tax cuts?

Being a corporatist shill just means that you are consuming more advertising than you are consuming critical thinking. "The private sector does it better" is the slogan of the private sector.

The private sector likes to tell you that it does it better so they can take your money and give you the least amount of service possible.

• Look at Alberta's private insurance industry? Albertans are paying billions of dollars more than our neighbours in BC or even Sasksatchewan.
• Look at Alberta's private electrical industry? Albertans are paying billions of more dollars than any other province in the country for electricity.
• Look at pharmaceuticals? The UCP have a plan that they want to implement right now to reduce pharmacare in Alberta and allow the private sector to charge people 40% more for drugs.
• Look at Bread!!!!! They literally lost a court case because they were fixing the price of bread and now they have to pay Canadians back $500M.

"But but but, the private sector is really good at innovation!" - Wrong, most innovation comes from universities and researchers, but then the private sector tries to buy up that research and turn it into profit.

There is one thing that the private sector does really well, make profit. Unfortunately, they only make a lot of profit for a few people but those people make so much money that they can basically start buying other people. The UCP are people who want to be bought, they are for sale to whichever rich person sends a lobbyist to grease their palms. This is the worst case scenario for regular people because now the private sector can get unleased by corrupt government officials and get into the business of harming people for profit.... Just like another place we know.

[PepsiFree]

Plus, “the private sector does it better and competition would help!” would be a lot more passable of an argument if the person making it weren’t talking about an industry rife with competition and private sector involvement already, in which similar “efficiency” problems plague literally all of them and they are all (at least all that have even 1/100 the delivery capacity required) more expensive than the public option by a lot.

If the private sector does it better, cheaper, more efficient, etc… why aren’t they?