Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Holy smokes. Nobody has said teachers shouldn’t have DB plans.

This is such a weirdly sensitive topic.

Person A: “Hey, that’s a good job you have, with good benefits.”

Person B: “Why are you such a hater?!?!”

Let’s try something:

“Accounting is a good job.”

Maybe just follow the conversation and you’ll struggle less to understand what’s being said and responded to.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Holy smokes. Nobody has said teachers shouldn’t have DB plans.

This is such a weirdly sensitive topic.

Person A: “Hey, that’s a good job you have, with good benefits.”

Person B: “Why are you such a hater?!?!”

Let’s try something:

“Accounting is a good job.”

My objection is that people salivate over the teachers pension plan and use that as a reason they shouldn’t be paid more. It’s a trope based on a misunderstanding of the cost of that pension.

Your first line should be teachers have so much vacation and a pension that no one else has access to even though I known nothing about the actual details and don’t save nearly as much so they don’t deserve more money.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by GGG

Your first line should be teachers have so much vacation and a pension that no one else has access to even though I known nothing about the actual details and don’t save nearly as much so they don’t deserve more money.

'I also don't take all the vacation days I'm entitled to in the first place.'

[Fuzz]

Meanwhile, in the Heart of Corruption...

A consultant advising Alberta’s health authority on its use of private surgical centres simultaneously worked for a company vyingfor a contract to operate such a facility, according to a confidential report obtained by The Globe and Mail.

Jitendra Prasad, a former procurement official with Alberta Health Services, represented Alberta Surgical Group in negotiations with the health authority in the summer of 2022, while he was paid by AHS to advise it about contracting with such private providers, the report states.

Alberta Surgical Group reached out to Mr. Prasad in early 2022, after it was eliminated from the competitive bidding process, according to the report from Borden Ladner Gervais. Alberta Health Services considered the company as a potential stopgap in Edmonton because AHS’s preferred vendors still needed to build their facilities, the report states.

In the midst of negotiations over that arrangement, Mr. Prasad retired as Alberta Health Services’s head of procurement in April 2022. Two weeks later, he signed a one-year consulting agreement with his former employer, an assignment that included providing guidance on private surgical facilities, according to the report.

But in July and August of 2022, Mr. Prasad represented Alberta Surgical Group in negotiations with the health authority to open a new facility, according to the report.
“Mr. Prasad was exposed to confidential information about the ASG Contract negotiations while he was employed at AHS and subsequently appears to have represented ASG in pricing negotiations on the same contract,” the document states.

It also says officials with Alberta Health Services knew Mr. Prasad was working for Alberta Surgical Group and didn’t object. The health authority’s rules require its employees to flag when their colleagues may be in a conflict of interest, however, the lawyers with Borden Ladner Gervais said they found no evidence this was done.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/cana...o-working-for/

Smith should probably give him one of those Order of Excellence medals.

[Fuzz]

Municipal affairs minister told to get more involved in local governments

The instructions for Williams focus on exercising more control over municipal governments to ensure they stick to providing core services.

In an interview, the minister said he plans to "course correct" if municipal governments step outside their lane.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...641734?cmp=rss

How about y'all #### off, instead? Thanks.

[Looch City]

Party of Smol Government ^TM

[troutman]

Northback submits new proposal to develop Alberta’s Grassy Mountain coal mine

https://removepaywalls.com/https://w...-mine-alberta/

The plan includes a new, multitier water management strategy to try and avoid potential selenium contamination, reduced water consumption and putting waste material back into the mine pit rather than Gold Creek – a huge point of contention in the original plan.

It also shrinks the mine’s footprint by around 40 per cent and reduces the likely output of steel-making coal to 2.5 million tonnes each year, from 4.5 million tonnes.

Sigh.

This is not steel making coal. This coal is low grade compared to Elk Valley.

Coal is no longer required to make steel.

Value of coal has dropped substantially in 3 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...dex-worldwide/

Public sentiment is 75 -90% (depending on the poll), against this.

They must know this - I think they are really fishing for a settlement.

[The Fisher Account]

Annual reminder that pensions are delayed compensation - not free money.

[indes]

Teachers reach MOA with province. https://teachers.ab.ca/

Are the teachers going to go with the union here, or vote this down?

[#-3]

Originally Posted by troutman

Northback submits new proposal to develop Alberta’s Grassy Mountain coal mine

https://removepaywalls.com/https://w...-mine-alberta/



Sigh.

This is not steel making coal. This coal is low grade compared to Elk Valley.

Coal is no longer required to make steel.

Value of coal has dropped substantially in 3 years:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...dex-worldwide/

Public sentiment is 75 -90% (depending on the poll), against this.

They must know this - I think they are really fishing for a settlement.

This isn't really true, especially in Canada.

We wither need coal or scrap to make steel, and for many mills it is one or the other not an on/off switch, so there is a lot of risk in becoming too dependent on scrap for feed stock, because it's possible scrap could become scarce for a variety of reasons. There are some applications where natural gas is an option to reduce ore in lieu of scrap, but it's not a universal solution.

[Hot_Flatus]

Word on the street is that the province has tabled the exact same offer to the ATA once again this morning - an offer that has not changed since the spring.

I would argue that the teachers should walk out in 72 hours at this point as it seems like the UCP is treating this a big game at this point. I'm not sure that it is even possible now that they have given notice previously but I'd rather just rip the band aid off and force them to take some heat.

What an embarrassing leadership this province has (that is saying a lot). They will undoubtedly act shocked that the response to the same offer yet again is the same from the ATA as well.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by #-3

This isn't really true, especially in Canada.

We wither need coal or scrap to make steel, and for many mills it is one or the other not an on/off switch, so there is a lot of risk in becoming too dependent on scrap for feed stock, because it's possible scrap could become scarce for a variety of reasons. There are some applications where natural gas is an option to reduce ore in lieu of scrap, but it's not a universal solution.

You can use hydrogen now. Maybe the province should lean into that, since they love hydrogen so much.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by GGG

My objection is that people salivate over the teachers pension plan and use that as a reason they shouldn’t be paid more. It’s a trope based on a misunderstanding of the cost of that pension.

Your first line should be teachers have so much vacation and a pension that no one else has access to even though I known nothing about the actual details and don’t save nearly as much so they don’t deserve more money.

It's nothing but greed. People 100% see someone with a nice pension and benefits and assume it is undeserved, overly generous, and know nothing about the true employer cost. Ironically, these same people sure like to make a point of twisting a knife about it and "summers off" while turning a blind eye to the yearly or quarterly bonus cheques they or their spouse rake in from the private sector and vacation time nearly anytime of the year that teachers cannot take.

The entire reason the ATA pension exists is to keep good teachers in the profession when they would have otherwise burnt out and left. UCP sympathizers and those who can't care less about the state of education in this province should remember that when they get on their soap box about wages and ignore poor classroom conditions relative to other provinces.

If people don't see that improving education funding, and yes, a quality raise for teachers, raises the bar for everyone in the province they should probably just put their heads back in the sand.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don’t think that’s the entire picture though. The benefit of the DB plan is that the accumulation phase means that you’re guaranteed to hit your target, and you can’t outlive your money. With a DC plan (or one where you just save the same amount), you run both risks. I know they’re kind of joined, but not entirely in my view.

Say I’m saving at the same rate as a DB plan, and the markets suck (or I make some poor decisions) in the couple years ahead of my retirement. With the personal plan, you might well be best delaying a year or two, because retiring and drawing an income into a decline is a massive risk. You don’t have that risk with the DB plan, and you just retire anyway.

And leading up to that, it’s all professionally managed and you don’t think about anything. One major issue with the DC plan is inertia. People set them up, and invest purely in a high interest account. Or purely into a mutual fund of on sort or another. Once that’s set, they never change it (generalizing), and this kind of inaction can have huge consequences. Same goes for savings plans people set for themselves. Maybe they start with $100/month and that’s fine. But twenty years later they’re still saving $100/month despite their income being much higher, and that $100 is simply not enough money. Those are all issues that the DB plan handles for you. Sure, some of that is forced savings, but the truth is a lot of people need that forced element (which is also a CPP benefit!)

Then you get to the point about decumulation and outliving your money. That’s obviously in favour of the DB plan.

I mean it's true that there's a guarantee, but that guarantee also comes at a cost. My wife was a teacher for a number of years, and I know enough finance theory to do things like figure out the imputed return on her contributions. It was very low, although I understand that since then the government has taken over the deficit from boomers and earlier who didn't pay their share.

So while I agree there's more variance in the "just save 14-18% of your salary every year" plan, some of that variance is to the upside as well. Someone who saved the same amount as a teacher and put that money in a balanced fund might choose to retire a year or two later if there's a market crash at their expected retirement date, but by far the most likely outcome is that they have a pot of money that vastly exceeds the value of a teacher's pension, and that variance is quite possibly to the "retire earlier" side of things.

If they truly wanted to eliminate accumulation phase risk they could buy government zero coupons every year that matured at their target retirement date. That would obviously lower returns but it would also eliminate risk, and given the significant savings rate would still end up with a good result.

Basically I think since the teacher's are paying in enough to cover this, from a labour point of view I don't view it as being economically better than an employer with a RRSP matching program, which is pretty common in the private sector especially for professionals.

I probably value the "professional management by ATRF" part of the package lower than the average person though.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by GGG

My objection is that people salivate over the teachers pension plan and use that as a reason they shouldn’t be paid more. It’s a trope based on a misunderstanding of the cost of that pension.

Your first line should be teachers have so much vacation and a pension that no one else has access to even though I known nothing about the actual details and don’t save nearly as much so they don’t deserve more money.

Well I can't speak for "people", but I can speak for myself and I can also interpret what Cliff is trying to say.

DB pensions are a great benefit and rarely exist in the private sector. They should be looked at as part of an entire compensation package, just like any other job.

Person A makes $105,000 but has no DB pension, maybe has DC and some stock matching.

Person B makes $95,000 but has a DB pension.


If Person B said "I don't make as much as person A and that's not fair" a reasonable response might be "well you do have a DB Pension so you should probably factor that into to the entire calculation package"

Instead it seems people here view that as suggesting Person B doesn't "deserve" the pension.

Final point. A government backed DB pension plan is guaranteed cash money for the rest of your life from retirement until death. There is simply no other product that a person could buy that would give you that kind of certainty, even private company DB plans. It is an excellent benefit and good for them, but let's not pretend that there isn't significant value ascribed to that pension.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Well I can't speak for "people", but I can speak for myself and I can also interpret what Cliff is trying to say.

DB pensions are a great benefit and rarely exist in the private sector. They should be looked at as part of an entire compensation package, just like any other job.

Person A makes $105,000 but has no DB pension, maybe has DC and some stock matching.

Person B makes $95,000 but has a DB pension.


If Person B said "I don't make as much as person A and that's not fair" a reasonable response might be "well you do have a DB Pension so you should probably factor that into to the entire calculation package"

Instead it seems people here view that as suggesting Person B doesn't "deserve" the pension.

Final point. A government backed DB pension plan is guaranteed cash money for the rest of your life from retirement until death. There is simply no other product that a person could buy that would give you that kind of certainty, even private company DB plans. It is an excellent benefit and good for them, but let's not pretend that there isn't significant value ascribed to that pension.

To add to this, there's a reason that DB plans are dwindling. They're expensive, difficult to manage, have a lot of regulatory burden, and have the ongoing risk of underfunding. All of those factors are basically offloaded to the employee in the DC plan.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

Word on the street is that the province has tabled the exact same offer to the ATA once again this morning - an offer that has not changed since the spring.

I would argue that the teachers should walk out in 72 hours at this point as it seems like the UCP is treating this a big game at this point. I'm not sure that it is even possible now that they have given notice previously but I'd rather just rip the band aid off and force them to take some heat.

What an embarrassing leadership this province has (that is saying a lot). They will undoubtedly act shocked that the response to the same offer yet again is the same from the ATA as well.

If that's true, why would the teachers union agree to it this time and put it up to their members for a vote?

UCP must have finally added to the offer or I don't think there would be a tentative agreement.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Person A makes $105,000 but has no DB pension, maybe has DC and some stock matching.

Person B makes $95,000 but has a DB pension.

Sure, but what if person B is paying an additional $10k per year in employee payments for the DB pension, and those payments equal the value of the pension?

Then you're double counting by saying it's reasonable to pay B less because they get a pension.

[IliketoPuck]

We could just have the actual underlying conversation that capitalism inherently seeks ways to maximize profits, and that the social contract has been broken for quite some time as a result, but that might be too on the nose for some.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Sure, but what if person B is paying an additional $10k per year in employee payments for the DB pension, and those payments equal the value of the pension?

Then you're double counting by saying it's reasonable to pay B less because they get a pension.

Calculating the value of someone's DB pension plan is pretty complicated and not at all linear.

All I'm trying to say is pointing out that teachers' get a DB pension plan as part of their compensation package which needs to be factored in to the discussion, just like 6 weeks off in the summer, christmas, easter etc...


Simply looking at someone's wage isn't sufficient. For example, as far as I can tell there aren't many "perks" to working in the public sector unless they are paid for by the staff themselves.