Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by CFO

So question teachers - if AB was to throw enough money at the teacher number size so that all classes maxed out at 20 kids. Would you take a pay cut and max out high end at $90k?

I find it fascinating when this type of sentiment gets stirred up in the public. I get it though, public dollars are at stake and it is time to haggle!

Break out your time cards teachers, a dude named sliver on the internet is pretty skeptical. But how much do you guys make on a minutely basis? The public needs answers. Oh you're including pd days? Why am I paying you if I have to have lunch with my own daughter?

A good rule of thumb I have is to not pretend like I know someone else's business. I hope you guys are all flat out raking though... But don't bore me with the details because I don't really care!

So, for the curious, no. I am not that interested in making 25 % below market. In fact I have zero interest in that given any made up condition you have.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Major Major

I find it fascinating when this type of sentiment gets stirred up in the public. I get it though, public dollars are at stake and it is time to haggle!

“Fascinating” is a really kind way to phrase it. False consciousness in action is one of the dumbest, self-defeating, and embarrassing things to observe, period.

You’ve got one side of the dispute full of people like “you,” with needs/wants like you, who are workers like you, who pay taxes like you, and whose entire job only exists to serve you (even if you don’t have kids, their role serves the society you depend on) in an area totally essential to your wellbeing… and you’ve still got people who share or benefit from those traits who would rather put their hand on the shoulders of those people like them to keep them down (in some completely nonsensical hope it raises themselves up).

In my experience, the type of people that are most likely to argue against public sector workers (if they’re not government officials) are either just general bootlickers on every topic or have a wildly inflated sense of their own importance. Like I’m sure the “would ya take a 20% pay cut” guy is providing a lot of value for society, but I suspect they’d prefer their wages, job performance, and responsibilities weren’t the subject of constant public scrutiny by people who have no idea as to what they’re talking about.

I work in the private sector myself and deal with a lot of different industries. Forget people who make more, there’s plenty of people who make less than teachers who are wildly overpaid or whose jobs are so low value that they’re on the precipice of being made redundant and don’t even realize it. They should be more careful who they side with.

[indes]

Has the union completely taken away the ability to negotiate on hiring new teachers or class sizes/complexity by signing the consent order? If so it seems like most of the recent talking points about what teachers wanted is already out the window, no? I'm just having a hard time following this because everyone has been talking about class sizes & complexity being the main reason for striking. I was really hoping the teachers would be able to push the province on some of this stuff. I've got 1 in grade 4 and two more kids coming into the system in the next couple of years and can't say I'm impressed with the system as it stands.

Hopefully the teachers have more they can do, otherwise a strike seems meaningless at this point.

[GullFoss]

As someone who generally leans a bit right of center on fiscal matters, the UPC did a real dirty tactic for these negotiations..they cut taxes and then said "well we don't have the money because deficit and fiscal prudence". That is so deeply offensive to me and I really don't think much about teachers. So I can only imagine how infuriating this must be for those in education. It's very bad faith.

That said, the offer on teacher pay by the province seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. However, to the extent there is a lack of teachers and investments being made - and the union has made a strong case that this is the case - the UPC should be pressured to properly fund them. So I partially support the teachers, but also have disdain for the politics being played by the UPC (would still vote for them over Spendshi though)

The crazy thing is that they're not very far apart, but I'd absolutely hate the UPC if I was a public sector worker.

[TheIronMaiden]

UCP: the world has gone astray and we need to protect children

Teachers: OK help fund better school infostructure and classroom supports

UCP: No. Not that.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

As someone who generally leans a bit right of center on fiscal matters, the UPC did a real dirty tactic for these negotiations..they cut taxes and then said "well we don't have the money because deficit and fiscal prudence". That is so deeply offensive to me and I really don't think much about teachers. So I can only imagine how infuriating this must be for those in education. It's very bad faith.

That said, the offer on teacher pay by the province seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. However, to the extent there is a lack of teachers and investments being made - and the union has made a strong case that this is the case - the UPC should be pressured to properly fund them. So I partially support the teachers, but also have disdain for the politics being played by the UPC (would still vote for them over Spendshi though)

The crazy thing is that they're not very far apart, but I'd absolutely hate the UPC if I was a public sector worker.

Dude, I'm sorry you are just coming to realize this, but this is standard conservative operating procedure. Harper was a real champ at it. Cut the GST then claimed poverty on all sorts of needs. The real poison comes when they and their media mouthpieces make it hard for voters to support any party that may even mention restoring taxes to levels needed to fund services, because they lie in comparisons with other countries and ignoring how marginal tax rates work. Voters believe the lies, and here we are. It's a long term wittling away at society, and while it's great you finally clued in to this, you will have to support different parties if you don't want it to continue.

[TheIronMaiden]

UCP Supporters: There is too much immigration and we are losing "Canadian Values"

Teachers: Ok, let's build up our teaching capacity and we can help integrate new Canadians by teaching them about our customs and history.


UCP Supporters: No. Not that.

[indes]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

As someone who generally leans a bit right of center on fiscal matters, the UPC did a real dirty tactic for these negotiations..they cut taxes and then said "well we don't have the money because deficit and fiscal prudence". That is so deeply offensive to me and I really don't think much about teachers. So I can only imagine how infuriating this must be for those in education. It's very bad faith.

That said, the offer on teacher pay by the province seems pretty fair and reasonable to me. However, to the extent there is a lack of teachers and investments being made - and the union has made a strong case that this is the case - the UPC should be pressured to properly fund them. So I partially support the teachers, but also have disdain for the politics being played by the UPC (would still vote for them over Spendshi though)

The crazy thing is that they're not very far apart, but I'd absolutely hate the UPC if I was a public sector worker.

And this is why the UCP will win again next election. Hate the way they operate, but the NDP boogeyman will be way worse!

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Dude, I'm sorry you are just coming to realize this, but this is standard conservative operating procedure. Harper was a real champ at it. Cut the GST then claimed poverty on all sorts of needs. The real poison comes when they and their media mouthpieces make it hard for voters to support any party that may even mention restoring taxes to levels needed to fund services, because they lie in comparisons with other countries and ignoring how marginal tax rates work. Voters believe the lies, and here we are. It's a long term wittling away at society, and while it's great you finally clued in to this, you will have to support different parties if you don't want it to continue.

1) I didn't care much for Harper

2) it's a perfectly reasonable position to cut taxes with good reason. Harper had a valid reason for tax cuts, namely that part of the tax increase was historically put in place to address a fiscal crisis which no longer existed. So to that extent, cutting taxes was a valid policy decision because the reason for those taxes was no longer valid (interest payments on debt had fallen substantially and debt to GDP levels were AAA). And harper did it while still running a prudent budget. Those decisions were reflective of competent governance, even if it's not to your taste or ideology or fiscal preferences.


The UPC in contrast cut taxes into a fiscal storm of tariffs with poor reasoning (fulfilling a campaign talking points). Cutting those taxes reduces their ability to run a prudent budget, which was already going to be impacted by lower employment and lower resource revenue. They're now using those tax cuts as a negotiation tactic, which is weaponizing their own incompetence. The UPC also had already accomplished the task of bringing public service pay back to reasonable levels, so at this point theyre cutting into the bone rather than into the fat.

[Fuzz]

What a UPC party might look like...

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by indes

And this is why the UCP will win again next election. Hate the way they operate, but the NDP boogeyman will be way worse!

Can't really call it a bogeyman when it happens about half the time lol

What contemporary fiscally prudent NDP governments can you point to? Horgan in BC, Romanov/Calvert in Sask, Doer/Selinger in MB. All great governments.

What imprudently NDP governments can you point to? BC in the 1990s, BC today, AB under Notely, Bob Rae in ON. All disasters.

Now this guy's nickname is literally Spendshi. Does that sound like a fiscally prudent or fiscally imprudent NDP leader?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Can't really call it a bogeyman when it happens about half the time lol

What contemporary fiscally prudent NDP governments can you point to? Horgan in BC, Romanov/Calvert in Sask, Doer/Selinger in MB. All great governments.

What imprudently NDP governments can you point to? BC in the 1990s, BC today, AB under Notely, Bob Rae in ON. All disasters.

Now this guy's nickname is literally Spendshi. Does that sound like a fiscally prudent or fiscally imprudent NDP leader?

LOL. Sure thing. They inherit an under-taxed jurisdiction in another energy crisis. They got Calgary a new Cancer Centre, which never would have happened, ever, under a Conservative government. They attempted to save money with a new medical lab, which the Conservatives immediately #### on, threw money away, and privatized into disaster before back peddling. They didn't flush over a billion down the drain for a pipeline that never got built.


Y'all got to live in the real world, man.

[GullFoss]

Sure sure, it's always someone else's fault lol

[Fuzz]

No, I'm serious. You called her a fiscal disaster. What was the disaster, specifically, and how does that compare to our recent Conservative fiscal disasters?

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

1) I didn't care much for Harper

2) it's a perfectly reasonable position to cut taxes with good reason. Harper had a valid reason for tax cuts, namely that part of the tax increase was historically put in place to address a fiscal crisis which no longer existed. So to that extent, cutting taxes was a valid policy decision because the reason for those taxes was no longer valid (interest payments on debt had fallen substantially and debt to GDP levels were AAA). And harper did it while still running a prudent budget. Those decisions were reflective of competent governance, even if it's not to your taste or ideology or fiscal preferences.


The UPC in contrast cut taxes into a fiscal storm of tariffs with poor reasoning (fulfilling a campaign talking points). Cutting those taxes reduces their ability to run a prudent budget, which was already going to be impacted by lower employment and lower resource revenue. They're now using those tax cuts as a negotiation tactic, which is weaponizing their own incompetence. The UPC also had already accomplished the task of bringing public service pay back to reasonable levels, so at this point theyre cutting into the bone rather than into the fat.

No, they are doing so much worse than that. They are destroying services and spending stupidly. They are cutting taxes to corporations to put more burden on people. They are preaching you the lies of trickle down economics and hoping that you do not understand economics enough to know that nothing will trickle down to you.

You made up a dumb nickname for Nenshi but the guy is honest and has integrity which your conservative party that you blindly support does not. Even with all of his future "spending" on services that Albertans want and need, do you know what he won't do? He won't spend all of our money on a bunch of crap that we do not want or need.

That is the punchline: Both parties will spend money but only the NDP will spend the money in a way that you and the rest of the people in this province will get some value back. The Conservatives will steal the money and then play dumb when you ask them where the money went. I posted a small sample of their incompetence 2 pages ago but I'll quote it for your review.

Originally Posted by Wolven

The province has had enough money to do both (hire teachers and pay them a respectable amount).

Imagine if:

• the UCP hadn't funneled $7.5B into Keystone XL
• the UCP hadn't dunked $1.3B to 2.5B in Sturgeon Refinery
• The UCP hadn't dumped $100M into their war room embarrassment
• Had not slashed corporate tax rates (costing the government $4.7B in revenue) so that corporations could have bigger profits, executives could get bigger bonuses, and Albertans would still be getting salary rollbacks and layoffs
• They had not gifted $83M to MHCare for unusable Turkish Tylenol
• They had not gifted charter schools $123M to benefit a handful of students.
• The renewable energy projects cancelled ($33B in investment in Alberta)
• The legal exposure of their coal policy flip flop ($15B in potential legal losses to coal corporations)
• The UCP hadn't immediately deposited their surplus from last year into the Heritage fund so they could pretend to be broke right now
• And so much more....

This government is so incompetent that instead of having piles of money to pay for all of the services we want, they are instead burning billions of our dollars to enable grifts and appease their overlords and then telling us to stop looking under the hood when everything comes crashing down around us.

They are literally relying on people being stupid and willing to turn on each other instead of putting all of our focus on the UCP's horrible mismanagement of the province and all out theft of our tax money.

It is time for you to wake up. There is NOTHING fiscally responsible about the conservative parties in Canada (provincial or federal). They are living on a reputation from decades ago that they no longer follow in the policies that they put forth and they hope that you won't notice that there is nothing fiscally responsible about their blatant corporatism and total disregard for people.

[indes]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Can't really call it a bogeyman when it happens about half the time lol

What contemporary fiscally prudent NDP governments can you point to? Horgan in BC, Romanov/Calvert in Sask, Doer/Selinger in MB. All great governments.

What imprudently NDP governments can you point to? BC in the 1990s, BC today, AB under Notely, Bob Rae in ON. All disasters.

Now this guy's nickname is literally Spendshi. Does that sound like a fiscally prudent or fiscally imprudent NDP leader?

You must know that the ANDP is not those other NDP parties...What fiscally prudent measures have the UCP taken? Have you listened to anything Nenshi has to say, or someone called him a name and that's his official policy now?

Maybe fiscally prudent is cutting AISH, putting ads out against teachers or running town halls for separatists. Could be the biggest cabinet in provincial history, lawsuit payouts for mining rights, refusing federal funding, cutting shelter funding, privatizing and paying to unprivatize medical services etc. etc. A bastion of fiscal prudency.

[Looch City]

Wait wait wait. Are you telling me that in the year 2025, after countless years of UCP spending mayhem on useless #### that there're STILL people out there complaining about "Spendshi"???

Hahahahahahahaha hahahahahaha

You honestly cannot be serious. My god hahahah

[#-3]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Can't really call it a bogeyman when it happens about half the time lol

What contemporary fiscally prudent NDP governments can you point to? Horgan in BC, Romanov/Calvert in Sask, Doer/Selinger in MB. All great governments.

What imprudently NDP governments can you point to? BC in the 1990s, BC today, AB under Notely, Bob Rae in ON. All disasters.

Now this guy's nickname is literally Spendshi. Does that sound like a fiscally prudent or fiscally imprudent NDP leader?

I'd actually like you to bring forward receipts for these 2 claims?

I want to know what big fiscally imprudent decisions came out of the Notely government so we can compare them to the Kenny and Smith Governments fiscal imprudence, I'm fairly certain you will find some examples that are an order of magnitude smaller than those brought by Wolven. Light Bulbs, theoretically scaring some undefined investments away (rather than the cancelations of $33B in projects....). But I don't think you will be able to establish a pattern, and certainly will struggle to bring the receipts that we have from the UPC crumpling up 10s of billions of dollars and throwing it in the garbage to prove they don't care about wok stuffffff.

I won't deny the nickname Spendshi, but I would like you to define the projects of fiscal imprudence, I'm guessing the Peace bridge and the Blue ring, what are some of the others you are concerned about? Projects that are dwarfed by the inflation from the on-again, off-again, cancellations of the Event center. Unfortunately right wingers don't have a long-recent history of running Calgary, but generally speaking the counter factuals of the infrastructures deficits we could be facing right now under Farkas 1.0 could have hung Calgary with future bills that would make Nenshi blush. Giving someone a nickname is not evidence of their behavior. Not understanding infrastructure investment is not the same as identifying fiscal wastefulness.

[TopChed]

You know your post is ridiculous when Looch City breaks character to mock it.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

No, I'm serious. You called her a fiscal disaster. What was the disaster, specifically, and how does that compare to our recent Conservative fiscal disasters?

See this is where you lose him. GullFoss and every other UCP cheerleader are lightning quick with their prepared soundbites, but as soon as you ask for specific facts regarding how bad the NDP were or how they can defend the UCP wasting so many more billions than the NDP ever did, you might as well be posting into the void. He's the perfect UCP voter, a useful tool to spread their propaganda with no ability to critically think for himself