Alberta Politics & Government Thread 3.0

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I think this is where you are falling apart, and can't get your mind around the math. A teacher works an 8 hour shift, and then goes home and works the average of 4 hours, after school.

If you take that additional 20 hours a week and extrapolate it to fill the time during the summer and other holidays, the number exceeds what would be a 40 hour week, for the entire year.

So, they are not really getting time off, but hours in lieu.

Four hours at home after an 8-hour day is such a crock of sht. That obvious baloney does not help their case at all and absolutely turns people like me off when they actually are starting with support.

I know so many teachers, dude. My family is half teachers as is my friend group.

Not one works four hours a day after the school day.

Also, it pretends professionals aren't expected to work beyond eight hours in a day. Every private and/or public company I've worked for, my friends work for and my wife has worked for expect way more than 8 hours per day. It's just the way our society is set up. All salaried employees are expected to work beyond a normal 9-5 in this day and age. Teachers aren't unique there, so it honestly just pisses people off when they try to play that card as though they're more put out than everyone else: they have it easier. They work way fewer hours per year than literally everyone else who has a full-time job.

The government will be putting out propaganda against teachers. The teachers union is also going to be putting out propaganda. Both messages will need to be viewed critically.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Yep, no arguments from me, I agreed with your post. Really just some extra clarifications and points added.

Now, tell me how to convince my wife to get a summer-time job and I'll buy you a beer.

Tell her to get a part time job that helps give her a discount somewhere she likes. I knew a few teachers like this. It'll save her money.

[Harry Lime]

I guarantee your entire family and friend group are gym teachers, or grade one or two. I know high school english and social studies teachers who would regularly exceed four hours.

All of my people are superior to your people, dude.

I don't care if you will never support them, but you are in a public forum and can cause other people to not support them. You are not the target audience for convincing anyone that teaching has become a ####ty job.

I mean, being adjacent to teachers has taught me to hate children, and the scum that spawned them, but I try to be chill about that in public.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Four hours at home after an 8-hour day is such a crock of sht. That obvious baloney does not help their case at all and absolutely turns people like me off when they actually are starting with support.

I know so many teachers, dude. My family is half teachers as is my friend group.

Not one works four hours a day after the school day.

Also, it pretends professionals aren't expected to work beyond eight hours in a day. Every private and/or public company I've worked for, my friends work for and my wife has worked for expect way more than 8 hours per day. It's just the way our society is set up. All salaried employees are expected to work beyond a normal 9-5 in this day and age. Teachers aren't unique there, so it honestly just pisses people off when they try to play that card as though they're more put out than everyone else: they have it easier. They work way fewer hours per year than literally everyone else who has a full-time job.

The government will be putting out propaganda against teachers. The teachers union is also going to be putting out propaganda. Both messages will need to be viewed critically.

The downsides here are that:

A) The Government has significantly more experience.
B) People seem to be swallowing Government Propaganda hook, line and sinker.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

I guarantee your entire family and friend group are gym teachers, or grade one or two. I know high school english and social studies teachers who would regularly exceed four hours.

All of my people are superior to your people, dude.

I don't care if you will never support them, but you are in a public forum and can cause other people to not support them. You are not the target audience for convincing anyone that teaching has become a ####ty job.

I mean, being adjacent to teachers has taught me to hate children, and the scum that spawned them, but I try to be chill about that in public.

lol, again, horsesht.

Some nights? Of course. Pretending that's a regular, daily thing? They're lying, they're mismanaging their time, or they're just super slow in which case fk 'em, I don't care if they suck...guess they'll have to work 12 hours every day while I'm going for wings, dinners and hanging out with my teacher friends who have an insane amount of free time compared to the other professionals in my groups.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

Apparently the province is getting ready to fire up the anti-teacher union ads. Looking like that strike is gonna happen.

So spending money on ads instead of maybe actually going back to the bargaining table?

[photon]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

The whole logic of parent consent with respect to a student being LGBTQ is bizarre.

I think it boils down to the parent's views.. some parents think their kids belong to them like their car belongs to them. Subject to their desires and goals. No son of mine is going to become a girl!

Some people think that kids are their own individuals and a parent is to protect and guide as best they can while giving them the space they need to become who they want/can.

[woob]

Death, taxes, and Sliver posting horsh1t about teachers. The 3 truths of life.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by woob

Death, taxes, and Sliver posting horsh1t about teachers. The 3 truths of life.

The circle is now complete.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by woob

Death, taxes, and Sliver posting horsh1t about teachers. The 3 truths of life.

bears can breath a shy of relief

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Sliver

lol, again, horsesht.

Some nights? Of course. Pretending that's a regular, daily thing? They're lying, they're mismanaging their time, or they're just super slow in which case fk 'em, I don't care if they suck...guess they'll have to work 12 hours every day while I'm going for wings, dinners and hanging out with my teacher friends who have an insane amount of free time compared to the other professionals in my groups.

Not horsesh*t. Not 4 hours every night, no. But an extra 20 hours a week, absolutely. At least the good ones do. That is tied into the issue that you agree with, which is all the coded kids in the class. It isn't just disruptive to the other students, it means the teacher needs to prepare separate individual lesson plans in a given class.

Fix one issue, and it will help with the other.

I don't think you are an office guy, but the analogy I like to use is if you had a full day meeting, where you were responsible for the entire presentation. Because it is a full day meeting, you need to prepare after-hours. Then do that everyday in the workweek. It takes extra time and there is only a small amount of prep time allocated during the day.

Those teachers make decent money, but it isn't part time, that is demeaning that position.

[Major Major]

The viewpoint of teachers not working enough to deserve more money is fine as an opinion but it does not solve the dynamic set of issues that plagues education in Alberta and the rest of Canada. A dramatic increase in teacher pay actually does.

Firstly, there is a teacher shortage in Canada due to demographics and it becoming a less desirable profession. 15 years ago, that didn't effect Alberta because we paid more than other provinces. Now, we pay less, have a lower number of teacher college graduates, have a hostile government and work conditions compared to other provinces are abysmal.

We are absolutely and without question at the beginning stages of a teacher shortage in Alberta. How bad could it get? Quebec has 30 000 unlicensed teachers in classrooms.

The faucet of out of province teachers coming into Alberta has been shut off and is now working in reverse. A 12% raise isn't going to change that.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Major Major

The viewpoint of teachers not working enough to deserve more money is fine as an opinion but it does not solve the dynamic set of issues that plagues education in Alberta and the rest of Canada. A dramatic increase in teacher pay actually does.

Firstly, there is a teacher shortage in Canada due to demographics and it becoming a less desirable profession. 15 years ago, that didn't effect Alberta because we paid more than other provinces. Now, we pay less, have a lower number of teacher college graduates, have a hostile government and work conditions compared to other provinces are abysmal.

We are absolutely and without question at the beginning stages of a teacher shortage in Alberta. How bad could it get? Quebec has 30 000 unlicensed teachers in classrooms.

The faucet of out of province teachers coming into Alberta has been shut off and is now working in reverse. A 12% raise isn't going to change that.

Okay, a lot of that makes sense, but lets assume for the moment for the sake of discussion that a wage increase that is deemed satisfactory can be reached, how is that going to ameliorate the issue of class sizes?

That seems to be a hot-button issue for teachers, but its a much more difficult proposition to fix than just 'more money.'

It seems a fundamental and systemic issue, if we as a Province increase their pay, attract more teachers, right now we're hearing the complaints that they're turning stages and gyms and libraries into classrooms, which presumes that there are enough teachers to teach those classes. To bring those class sizes down is a different logistical prospect entirely.

Assuming you fix 'Problem A' which is pay, how does one tackle 'Problem B' which is where do you put all of these new teachers and their students?

It doesnt appear the solution is as simple as 'Build More Schools' because they can't pop-up overnight and even if they could, where do you put them? Then you have to deal with getting kids to the new schools.

[Harry Lime]

Silver is the only person who could go online and call Charlie Kirk a teacher, and then lose his job over it.

[Mr.Coffee]

I require my kids teachers to be barely above the poverty line and not a red cent more.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Harry Lime

Silver is the only person who could go online and call Charlie Kirk a teacher, and then lose his job over it.

Am I the only one who doesn't have a fricken clue what this sentence means?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

Not horsesh*t. Not 4 hours every night, no. But an extra 20 hours a week, absolutely. At least the good ones do. That is tied into the issue that you agree with, which is all the coded kids in the class. It isn't just disruptive to the other students, it means the teacher needs to prepare separate individual lesson plans in a given class.

Fix one issue, and it will help with the other.

I don't think you are an office guy, but the analogy I like to use is if you had a full day meeting, where you were responsible for the entire presentation. Because it is a full day meeting, you need to prepare after-hours. Then do that everyday in the workweek. It takes extra time and there is only a small amount of prep time allocated during the day.

Those teachers make decent money, but it isn't part time, that is demeaning that position.

Well they literally work nine months per year. Go look up expectations for a full-time job. Teachers get months more time off than that.

How is that demeaning, anyway? It's just the truth. Ask any teacher. They'll tell you they only get paid for 10 months of the year. That's because they don't work two months at all (we'll call the third month they don't work an earned vacation to which paying them is absolutely fair).

So yeah, I don't get your objection. It's not even a controversial statement. How can basic facts be interpreted as demeaning?

Extra 20 hours a week on average throughout the year? That's what you're saying? Instructional hours per week are 25.5 (950 hours per year / 185 instructional days = ~5.1 hours per day). Teachers already have 14.5 hours to mark and prep if we're assuming they work an 8-hour day during the nine months/year they work. And you're trying to tell me they need 34.5 hours per week (your 20 hours per week + 14.5 hours they already have)?

Horse. Manure.

Now, are there problems for teachers that need addressing? Yes. Their wages should move consistent with private sector wage movement in the timeframe from their last contract until now.

They should not be expected to hold the hands of kids not capable of keeping up as that is detrimental to the majority of kids. I understand how that hurts the class, creates more work and makes the classroom a more scattered environment. It's also not fair to the kids who have difficulty managing with their peers (it would be awful to sit in a class all day everyday feeling a step behind). And it's not fair to the other kids if the teacher is constantly catering to a child ill-equipped to be in that particular class.

Another problem one of my teacher friends has identified as being a big issue that I haven't seen brought up here is ESL kids in his class. Likely very dependent on the school/community in which you teach and I have no clue how you address this one, but I don't understand how you can expect a grade four teacher (as an example) to teach seven kids English while they're simultaneously trying to teach 23 kids math (and also the seven ESLs math). I imagine that is a really touchy one to bring up as it can be spun into racism really fast, but the way my friend talks about it is out of absolute concern for his entire class it affects...he's the least racist guy ever...doesn't even have flareups in traffic.

I don't like how we're pretending each teacher is inventing lesson plans for each course. That's such gaslighting. There are lesson plans and curriculums and ready-made materials galore. They can also re-use much (and sometimes all) of their previous lesson plans from year to year. They don't have to re-invent the wheel every day, so I think when you say things like that it turns would-be supporters into eye rollers that stop giving a hoot.

I've never gone wrong deferring to Malcolm on this stuff. He articulates teacher issues without gaslighting, exaggerating or embellishing. I don't think you do as good a job, tbh.

[flamingreen]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Another problem one of my teacher friends has identified as being a big issue that I haven't seen brought up here is ESL kids in his class. Likely very dependent on the school/community in which you teach and I have no clue how you address this one, but I don't understand how you can expect a grade four teacher (as an example) to teach seven kids English while they're simultaneously trying to teach 23 kids math (and also the seven ESLs math). I imagine that is a really touchy one to bring up as it can be spun into racism really fast, but the way my friend talks about it is out of absolute concern for his entire class it affects...he's the least racist guy ever...doesn't even have flareups in traffic.

Of the 32 kids in my Grade 5 class last year, 28 were considered English language learners (now that had varying degrees too, several spoke no/minimal English). Ironically, math is probably the one subject where that is less of an issue (unless we are talking word problems), as they all can understand the numbers.

But where do those kids go? Several kids came to Canada, and two weeks later were in my classroom. Unless the answer is - no school for you - into the classroom they go.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Well they literally work nine months per year. Go look up expectations for a full-time job. Teachers get months more time off than that.

How is that demeaning, anyway? It's just the truth. Ask any teacher. They'll tell you they only get paid for 10 months of the year. That's because they don't work two months at all (we'll call the third month they don't work an earned vacation to which paying them is absolutely fair).

So yeah, I don't get your objection. It's not even a controversial statement. How can basic facts be interpreted as demeaning?

Extra 20 hours a week on average throughout the year? That's what you're saying? Instructional hours per week are 25.5 (950 hours per year / 185 instructional days = ~5.1 hours per day). Teachers already have 14.5 hours to mark and prep if we're assuming they work an 8-hour day during the nine months/year they work. And you're trying to tell me they need 34.5 hours per week (your 20 hours per week + 14.5 hours they already have)?

Horse. Manure.

Now, are there problems for teachers that need addressing? Yes. Their wages should move consistent with private sector wage movement in the timeframe from their last contract until now.

They should not be expected to hold the hands of kids not capable of keeping up as that is detrimental to the majority of kids. I understand how that hurts the class, creates more work and makes the classroom a more scattered environment. It's also not fair to the kids who have difficulty managing with their peers (it would be awful to sit in a class all day everyday feeling a step behind). And it's not fair to the other kids if the teacher is constantly catering to a child ill-equipped to be in that particular class.

Another problem one of my teacher friends has identified as being a big issue that I haven't seen brought up here is ESL kids in his class. Likely very dependent on the school/community in which you teach and I have no clue how you address this one, but I don't understand how you can expect a grade four teacher (as an example) to teach seven kids English while they're simultaneously trying to teach 23 kids math (and also the seven ESLs math). I imagine that is a really touchy one to bring up as it can be spun into racism really fast, but the way my friend talks about it is out of absolute concern for his entire class it affects...he's the least racist guy ever...doesn't even have flareups in traffic.

I don't like how we're pretending each teacher is inventing lesson plans for each course. That's such gaslighting. There are lesson plans and curriculums and ready-made materials galore. They can also re-use much (and sometimes all) of their previous lesson plans from year to year. They don't have to re-invent the wheel every day, so I think when you say things like that it turns would-be supporters into eye rollers that stop giving a hoot.

I've never gone wrong deferring to Malcolm on this stuff. He articulates teacher issues without gaslighting, exaggerating or embellishing. I don't think you do as good a job, tbh.

I am fine with both of us deferring to Malcolm on this, as he does a fine job explaining the role of teaching.

But the bold just shows how out to lunch you are with this stuff. You think teachers punch a clock for 5.1 hours a day or 25.5 hours a week leaving 14.5 hours for prep? Have you considered teacher meetings, parent meetings, extra-curricular activities, recess and lunchroom supervision, class e-mails and professional development requirements?

Things have changed since we were in school. You have acknowledged the additional challenges of IPPs and ESL kids. There are very limited resources, so many schools don't have a dedicated music or gym teacher. That stuff needs to get done, and without them there are no breaks for prep.

I am providing my anecdotal evidence in the same way you are. It isn't gas lighting. It isn't definitive either, but teachers work way harder than you give them credit. They simply do not take out a big binder with lesson plans and change the date from 2024 to 2025. Isn't your kid in Uni to become a teacher? Is that what he/she is telling you how she is learning to become a teacher?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by flamingreen

Of the 32 kids in my Grade 5 class last year, 28 were considered English language learners (now that had varying degrees too, several spoke no/minimal English). Ironically, math is probably the one subject where that is less of an issue (unless we are talking word problems), as they all can understand the numbers.

But where do those kids go? Several kids came to Canada, and two weeks later were in my classroom. Unless the answer is - no school for you - into the classroom they go.

Yeah I don't have a clue for a solution on that. It's crazy it falls onto teachers to deal with, though.