DND recently narrowed down the field of competitors to replace our Victoria Class submarines with at least 10 modern boats. The contenders are the KSS-III and the 212CD.
I like the KSS-III offering personally. It seems like a better overall package, including full tech transfer, ballistic launch capability, and a much faster timeline for delivery.
The 212CD, however, is a derivative of the 212A in service for 20+ years, it builds upon over a century of operational expertise. The 212CD is in service with the German and Norwegian navy and is a proven and reliable system.
I don't really know anything about this subject, so have no strong opinion... but I was curious to see that the two contenders are German and South Korean. I would've imagined there would be an American option. Are subs just not the American's speciality, or is their exclusion a fallout/negotiation tactic because of the recent tiffs?
The Australians also signed up to acquire several American Virginia class SSNs as part of the AUKUS alliance but due to low American shipbuilding capacity, they probably won't receive them till well after 2032.
I don't really know anything about this subject, so have no strong opinion... but I was curious to see that the two contenders are German and South Korean. I would've imagined there would be an American option. Are subs just not the American's speciality, or is their exclusion a fallout/negotiation tactic because of the recent tiffs?
South Korea has been putting forward a lot of diplomatic efforts to entice Canada into a stronger defense and strategic partnership. But of course, Germany is a NATO partner and maybe there could be some value to having the same equipment as our NATO allies.
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I don't really know anything about this subject, so have no strong opinion... but I was curious to see that the two contenders are German and South Korean. I would've imagined there would be an American option. Are subs just not the American's speciality, or is their exclusion a fallout/negotiation tactic because of the recent tiffs?
I say that Canada just wash their hands of the entire affair. Go to Trump and go to Putin and just tell them straight up:
"Look guys, we dont want to defend the Arctic anymore. Its nothing but a pain in the ass.
So heres what we're going to do. We're going to have a little Auction to Lease the rights to defend the Artic. Highest bidder wins obviously and all we could get on short notice was a Cattle Auctioneer so watch out for the hat.
Aaaannnd GO!!!"
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I don't really know anything about this subject, so have no strong opinion... but I was curious to see that the two contenders are German and South Korean. I would've imagined there would be an American option. Are subs just not the American's speciality, or is their exclusion a fallout/negotiation tactic because of the recent tiffs?
Boycott America, of course.
I was actually just learning up about this submarine topic before I saw this thread start. This video talks more about the politics and economic ramifications and the rational to eliminate the US from the project:
Just another way how red states are being decimated by their own votes. At the same time Carney quietly meets Trump's requirement of increasing defense spending without sending any of the money to the US.
Bonus points on the decision because it not only removes Canadian dollars that the US assumed was going to them but also nationalizes a bunch of the defence spending into Vancouver and Halifax instead.
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DND recently narrowed down the field of competitors to replace our Victoria Class submarines with at least 10 modern boats. The contenders are the KSS-III and the 212CD.
I like the KSS-III offering personally. It seems like a better overall package, including full tech transfer, ballistic launch capability, and a much faster timeline for delivery.
The 212CD, however, is a derivative of the 212A in service for 20+ years, it builds upon over a century of operational expertise. The 212CD is in service with the German and Norwegian navy and is a proven and reliable system.
A part of me thinks... why not both? I have no idea how much cost savings there is in getting all 12 of the subs from the same place but I expect that the savings is not as much as I would hope for.
But based on that video, having 6 of each would be an interesting balance approach. The Germany subs are more sneaky and hardened for cold and the Korean subs are more advanced and pack a bigger punch.
Build the Korean sub support base in Vancouver and the German Sub support base in Halifax.
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Damned Yanks never let us play with their really nice toys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
I say that Canada just wash their hands of the entire affair. Go to Trump and go to Putin and just tell them straight up:
"Look guys, we dont want to defend the Arctic anymore. Its nothing but a pain in the ass.
So heres what we're going to do. We're going to have a little Auction to Lease the rights to defend the Artic. Highest bidder wins obviously and all we could get on short notice was a Cattle Auctioneer so watch out for the hat.
Aaaannnd GO!!!"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Locke
Lembas Bread FTW! Except Big Bread has probably been overcharging for that as well!
A part of me thinks... why not both? I have no idea how much cost savings there is in getting all 12 of the subs from the same place but I expect that the savings is not as much as I would hope for.
But based on that video, having 6 of each would be an interesting balance approach. The Germany subs are more sneaky and hardened for cold and the Korean subs are more advanced and pack a bigger punch.
Build the Korean sub support base in Vancouver and the German Sub support base in Halifax.
I think that's a good idea. You really can't discount Germanys long history of successful and desperate sub xp where necessityis the mother of all invention. I love the wire-guided submerged-launched anti-air missile they've got going, effectively eliminating air threats which are probably a submarines biggest weakness. Hunted becomes hunter vibe. I think of the 212CD as a hidden sniper capable of taking on anything with confidence, while the KSS-III is something designed to provide multi-mission flexibility/options on a superior timetable. Our arctic sovereignty issue is urgen, and when procurement is measured in decades, it gives gives us a good answer quickly.
It's unfortunate, but I think any amount of cost savings will overrule dual systems for the same assigned task.
I'm glad it's not my decision.
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A part of me thinks... why not both? I have no idea how much cost savings there is in getting all 12 of the subs from the same place but I expect that the savings is not as much as I would hope for.
Given the state of military procurement in the West, it's probably best to minimize risk and complexity as much as possible and stick to one design. Especially with the other massive programs the Canadian military is doing at the same time; the 15 Rivers-class destroyers and the 88 (probably) F-35s for the Air Force. Making all three programs succeed is going to require one of the greatest feats of project management in Canadian history.
Given the state of military procurement in the West, it's probably best to minimize risk and complexity as much as possible and stick to one design. Especially with the other massive programs the Canadian military is doing at the same time; the 15 Rivers-class destroyers and the 88 (probably) F-35s for the Air Force. Making all three programs succeed is going to require one of the greatest feats of project management in Canadian history.
Yeah, this is my understanding as well. Standardize as much as possible to keep maintenance and repair costs in line.
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This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
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Canadian Patrol Submarine Project
