2025/26 Roster Discussion

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

It's absolutely possible to roll 4 effective lines between 11-14 minutes a game at five on five. We saw Washington do it last year to damn near league best results.

Fans get to preoccupied with numbering the lines, but Backlund and Coleman can still easily play 14 minutes a night with PK time and be put into pure defensive assignments which hopefully opens up easier matchups and better output for the rest of the lineup.

Of course it's possible ... it's up to each team to decide.

But it's not a preoccupation it's math.

Are you comfortable to have another center cover 33% of the elite forwards playing against Calgary?
Are you comfortable with your number one center playing 2 less minutes of five on five hockey a night?
Are you ok with the impact that has on his offensive affectiveness?

I think a team with a budding new shut down center on the fourth line likely has more of a push to make that happen.

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Goriders

Tick tock Zary/Conroy. Tick Tock.

umm get up in the morning feeling like P Diddy?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by kehatch

I wouldn't bet my house on it, but I think if he makes the team he is paired with Weegar. He is the best mentor we have, and he has shown he is good enough to play with just about anyone.

I don't think you put a guy like Parekh on the third pair anymore then you put a top forward prospect on the fourth line. You can shelter him by minimizing the d zone starts against top lines, and managing his minutes based on play. But you want him playing with your top forwards and D, not your fourth liners.

Parekh has undeniable skill, still, he looked lost in pre season games last year. I think he should check our expectation. He will become a great player, but may not come in a first line D man.

[DJones]

If Backlund is on the 4th line, hes still going to get his ~15 minutes of even strength TOI and that would just screw up the other lines.

4th line playing 8-10 minutes and going balls to the wall is much preferable.

[PepsiFree]

Teams rarely have all four lines playing the same number of minutes on average anyway. So I don’t think it’s simple math where if Backlund gets 13 then his linemates get 13 and another line all gets 11. A lot of teams have a star playing 15+, a few guys at 14+, 13+, 12+, 11+ and then a couple tweeners at the 10-9 range.

Lines rarely even stay the same for an entire game, let alone a whole season.

St.Louis, by the way had 7 different regulars playing less than 12 minutes a night, so I don’t totally buy the argument that 6 guys playing less than 12 minutes is going to neuter them. They made the playoffs, we didn’t.

Backlund is probably over-playing as it is. Most guys who played 14+ EV and 2+ SH are guys who are outscoring him by 10-40 points. That’s with similar PP time. Reducing his minutes by 1-2 per game EV based on where he’s at today makes a lot of sense.

You can call it whatever line # you want, but I think there’s a valid argument around reducing his ice time and rethinking the 4th line. Even if it’s keeping him on the 3rd line, opening up some time for the 4th line, and filling it with guys like Pospisil, Klapka, and another rookie vs having Lomberg (who I love) and a couple AHL tweeners run around for 8 minutes, I think that’s the route to go.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Teams rarely have all four lines playing the same number of minutes on average anyway. So I don’t think it’s simple math where if Backlund gets 13 then his linemates get 13 and another line all gets 11. A lot of teams have a star playing 15+, a few guys at 14+, 13+, 12+, 11+ and then a couple tweeners at the 10-9 range.

Lines rarely even stay the same for an entire game, let alone a whole season.

St.Louis, by the way had 7 different regulars playing less than 12 minutes a night, so I don’t totally buy the argument that 6 guys playing less than 12 minutes is going to neuter them. They made the playoffs, we didn’t.

Backlund is probably over-playing as it is. Most guys who played 14+ EV and 2+ SH are guys who are outscoring him by 10-40 points. That’s with similar PP time. Reducing his minutes by 1-2 per game EV based on where he’s at today makes a lot of sense.

You can call it whatever line # you want, but I think there’s a valid argument around reducing his ice time and rethinking the 4th line. Even if it’s keeping him on the 3rd line, opening up some time for the 4th line, and filling it with guys like Pospisil, Klapka, and another rookie vs having Lomberg (who I love) and a couple AHL tweeners run around for 8 minutes, I think that’s the route to go.

We just keep going around and around.

You play Backlund less when a) he's less effective or b) you have a younger suitable replacement.

I have no problem with either of those options.

But the Flames have four lines and four centers on any given night and they likely land with 48 to 49 minutes of total five on five hockey.

Elite players say they need to play to feel it so taking it away from Kadri will likely hurt his production.

Taking it away from Backlund will likely expose your team to more unprotected minutes from elite opposition.

I don't see much point in arguing either of those simple facts.

And then the other issue is the third line and how do you get Zary and Frost (or others) minutes to see if they have future top six potential down the middle.

I'm not dictating anything. But the group that thought Backlund should just go to the fourth line haven't though through either of a) the time that fourth lines generally get and b) his current level of affectiveness.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm not dictating anything. But the group that thought Backlund should just go to the fourth line haven't though through either of a) the time that fourth lines generally get and b) his current level of affectiveness.

Well, no, that’s not really a fair summary. I’ve given plenty of thought around how the fourth line is structured and how we can deploy it differently (and mentioned as much in my post) and shown that Backlund’s current level of effectiveness does not justify his minutes.

Of the top 32 centers for shorthanded TOI/GP (guys we can effectively categorize as the top “shutdown” centers on their team), 8 played more than 14 minutes EV in addition to their SH time.

Ryan McLeod - 79gp/20g/33a/53p
Mikael Backlund - 76gp/15g/17a/32p
Vincent Trochek - 82gp/26g/33a/59p
Nico Hischier - 75gp/35g/34a/69p
Anthony Cirelli - 80gp/27g/32a/59p
Shane Pinto - 70gp/21g/16a/37p
Chandler Stephenson - 78gp/13g/38a/51p
Dawson Mercer - 82gp/19g/17a/36p

Pinto and Mercer are the closest, but Backlund averaged more EV and PP time than either of them and their both younger/developing at 23/24 (the kind of guys you add time and responsibility for) vs Backlund at 36.

You look at guys like Lowry, Lundell, or Norris who did more with less or even Kerfoot who was a little worse with far less minutes EV/PP as a 4th liner and I do think it’s reasonable to question whether his effectiveness justifies his EV minutes. It certainly doesn’t justify his PP minutes.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Teams rarely have all four lines playing the same number of minutes on average anyway. So I don’t think it’s simple math where if Backlund gets 13 then his linemates get 13 and another line all gets 11. A lot of teams have a star playing 15+, a few guys at 14+, 13+, 12+, 11+ and then a couple tweeners at the 10-9 range.

Lines rarely even stay the same for an entire game, let alone a whole season.

St.Louis, by the way had 7 different regulars playing less than 12 minutes a night, so I don’t totally buy the argument that 6 guys playing less than 12 minutes is going to neuter them. They made the playoffs, we didn’t.

Backlund is probably over-playing as it is. Most guys who played 14+ EV and 2+ SH are guys who are outscoring him by 10-40 points. That’s with similar PP time. Reducing his minutes by 1-2 per game EV based on where he’s at today makes a lot of sense.

You can call it whatever line # you want, but I think there’s a valid argument around reducing his ice time and rethinking the 4th line. Even if it’s keeping him on the 3rd line, opening up some time for the 4th line, and filling it with guys like Pospisil, Klapka, and another rookie vs having Lomberg (who I love) and a couple AHL tweeners run around for 8 minutes, I think that’s the route to go.

The main ice time reduction I would want to see for Backlund would be PP time. He is great 5v5 and amazing on the PK but I do not feel like he is adding much on the PP, even though it is the second unit.

PP1 = Kadri-Huberdeau-Coronato-Sharangovich-Weegar
PP2 = Frost-Zary-Farabee-Klapka(crash net!!!)-Parekh
PP3 = Kadri-Huberdeau-Coronato-Weegar-Bahl

Unless we need a C specifically, Coleman should slot into the PP before Backlund.

Backlund's line should be deployed after the powerplay expires to prevent the push some teams give after killing a penalty (also, the other team's top line is usually fresh as they are typically not on the PK).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Well, no, that’s not really a fair summary. I’ve given plenty of thought around how the fourth line is structured and how we can deploy it differently (and mentioned as much in my post) and shown that Backlund’s current level of effectiveness does not justify his minutes.

Of the top 32 centers for shorthanded TOI/GP (guys we can effectively categorize as the top “shutdown” centers on their team), 8 played more than 14 minutes EV in addition to their SH time.

Ryan McLeod - 79gp/20g/33a/53p
Mikael Backlund - 76gp/15g/17a/32p
Vincent Trochek - 82gp/26g/33a/59p
Nico Hischier - 75gp/35g/34a/69p
Anthony Cirelli - 80gp/27g/32a/59p
Shane Pinto - 70gp/21g/16a/37p
Chandler Stephenson - 78gp/13g/38a/51p
Dawson Mercer - 82gp/19g/17a/36p

Pinto and Mercer are the closest, but Backlund averaged more EV and PP time than either of them and their both younger/developing at 23/24 (the kind of guys you add time and responsibility for) vs Backlund at 36.

You look at guys like Lowry, Lundell, or Norris who did more with less or even Kerfoot who was a little worse with far less minutes EV/PP as a 4th liner and I do think it’s reasonable to question whether his effectiveness justifies his EV minutes. It certainly doesn’t justify his PP minutes.

I've never lobbied for pp time for Backlund, I don't think he's suited.

And I don't think I'm fighting the fight to keep him at 14 minutes. Just pointing out that at the moment he's their only real option against elite talent and that takes up a lot of the pie.

To be honest I don't see five on five shut down and killing penalties as a venn diagram. Very different strategically.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've never lobbied for pp time for Backlund, I don't think he's suited.

And I don't think I'm fighting the fight to keep him at 14 minutes. Just pointing out that at the moment he's their only real option against elite talent and that takes up a lot of the pie.

To be honest I don't see five on five shut down and killing penalties as a venn diagram. Very different strategically.

Backlund's powerplay time probably has more to do with the Flames' lack of centre depth more than his skillset.

With Kadri and Frost lining up on the same power play line a lot of the time, who else were they going to go with as the PP2 centre last year? Maybe Zary or a winger can bump Frost down into PP2 and Backlund out, but the team needs a centre who can win some faceoffs on both powerplay units and Backlund will continue to get PP time until they figure that out.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I've never lobbied for pp time for Backlund, I don't think he's suited.

And I don't think I'm fighting the fight to keep him at 14 minutes. Just pointing out that at the moment he's their only real option against elite talent and that takes up a lot of the pie.

To be honest I don't see five on five shut down and killing penalties as a venn diagram. Very different strategically.

To make a note of your last point, look at Kevin Bahl.

Seems to be a fine defender, but I was pulling my hair out watching him and Andersson flail around on the PK. He seems to have the perfect PK build but his decision making on the PK was very bad for much of the year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by YyjFlames

Backlund's powerplay time probably has more to do with the Flames' lack of centre depth more than his skillset.

With Kadri and Frost lining up on the same power play line a lot of the time, who else were they going to go with as the PP2 centre last year? Maybe Zary or a winger can bump Frost down into PP2 and Backlund out, but the team needs a centre who can win some faceoffs on both powerplay units and Backlund will continue to get PP time until they figure that out.

Not sure position has much to do with it ... just a lack of skill.

Most PPs are run with 4F/1D and sadly he's been the 8th best forward in their eyes.

Neither he nor Coleman should be anywhere near a PP.

Flames in PP Time per game last 25 games (after Frost / Farabee acquistion).

Kadri 3:03
Huberdeau 2:57
Coronato 2:47
Frost 2:45

and then things get hairy ...

Sharangovich 1:41
Coleman 1:36
Zary 1:34
Backlund 1:19
Farabee 1:16

The Flames don't have a second unit of PP forwards and should probably go with two D!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I think they have to make a Frost vs Zary call this season, or use them both at center.

Frost is probably the best centre on the team at carrying the puck into the zone. I can't see them moving him away from centre and he's likely in the long-term plans.

If Zary continues developing as a centre, I could see him taking over for Backlund at some point. I hope that the Flames can land a legit young first line centre at some point, which will almost certainly push Zary out of that position, or possibly Kadri gets moved to a different position/team at some point.

[Doc Hudson]

Injuries are inevitable!

Sent from my SM-N981U using Tapatalk

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure position has much to do with it ... just a lack of skill.

Most PPs are run with 4F/1D and sadly he's been the 8th best forward in their eyes.

Neither he nor Coleman should be anywhere near a PP.

Flames in PP Time per game last 25 games (after Frost / Farabee acquistion).

Kadri 3:03
Huberdeau 2:57
Coronato 2:47
Frost 2:45

and then things get hairy ...

Sharangovich 1:41
Coleman 1:36
Zary 1:34
Backlund 1:19
Farabee 1:16

The Flames don't have a second unit of PP forwards and should probably go with two D!

Parekh’s probably more dangerous offensively than the second set of forwards.

[Sylvanfan]

I see Frost as the heir apparently to Backlund. If Backlunds play slips, he's the guy to put in that role.

[YyjFlames]

Originally Posted by blankall

Frost is probably the best centre on the team at carrying the puck into the zone. I can't see them moving him away from centre and he's likely in the long-term plans.

If Zary continues developing as a centre, I could see him taking over for Backlund at some point. I hope that the Flames can land a legit young first line centre at some point, which will almost certainly push Zary out of that position, or possibly Kadri gets moved to a different position/team at some point.

Zary was looking pretty good at carrying the puck into the zone at speed on the powerplay until he got injured. The Flames were leaning on him for that (playing him almost as much as huberdeau and Kadri). But that was before they got Frost.

It actually might be one of the sticking points in negotiations as his powerplay time stayed with Frost even after he returned.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Well, no, that’s not really a fair summary. I’ve given plenty of thought around how the fourth line is structured and how we can deploy it differently (and mentioned as much in my post) and shown that Backlund’s current level of effectiveness does not justify his minutes.

Of the top 32 centers for shorthanded TOI/GP (guys we can effectively categorize as the top “shutdown” centers on their team), 8 played more than 14 minutes EV in addition to their SH time.

Ryan McLeod - 79gp/20g/33a/53p
Mikael Backlund - 76gp/15g/17a/32p
Vincent Trochek - 82gp/26g/33a/59p
Nico Hischier - 75gp/35g/34a/69p
Anthony Cirelli - 80gp/27g/32a/59p
Shane Pinto - 70gp/21g/16a/37p
Chandler Stephenson - 78gp/13g/38a/51p
Dawson Mercer - 82gp/19g/17a/36p

Pinto and Mercer are the closest, but Backlund averaged more EV and PP time than either of them and their both younger/developing at 23/24 (the kind of guys you add time and responsibility for) vs Backlund at 36.

You look at guys like Lowry, Lundell, or Norris who did more with less or even Kerfoot who was a little worse with far less minutes EV/PP as a 4th liner and I do think it’s reasonable to question whether his effectiveness justifies his EV minutes. It certainly doesn’t justify his PP minutes.

This is not all about how good Backlund is. Some of this is about who the Flames have to take over for him. Some of what you say makes sense, but even with less minutes he will not get 4th line minutes and is good enough to get 3rd line minutes on most teams.

Put yourself in Huska position. You are a rookie coach, you want to build up your resume as some day the Flames will fire you. His job is to mentor kids and help with their development, but his job is also to win games and to get the most out of his team. McDavid and Leon hop over the boards, you sending out Frost or Zary more often than Backlund. Nope

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Hockey-and_stuff

To make a note of your last point, look at Kevin Bahl.

Seems to be a fine defender, but I was pulling my hair out watching him and Andersson flail around on the PK. He seems to have the perfect PK build but his decision making on the PK was very bad for much of the year.

Andersson and Bahl were a bad pairing the last part of the season. I hope they put Bahl or Andersson with Weegar.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

This is not all about how good Backlund is. Some of this is about who the Flames have to take over for him. Some of what you say makes sense, but even with less minutes he will not get 4th line minutes and is good enough to get 3rd line minutes on most teams.

Put yourself in Huska position. You are a rookie coach, you want to build up your resume as some day the Flames will fire you. His job is to mentor kids and help with their development, but his job is also to win games and to get the most out of his team. McDavid and Leon hop over the boards, you sending out Frost or Zary more often than Backlund. Nope

The Flames have several forwards better than Backlund offensively.

Backlund’s defensive game is great, no question. But the team does have to focus on putting the puck in the net if they want to win games, too.