Israel declares war on Hamas

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...7-october-gaza


Jews have guys like this to thank for the fear they have to live in around the world. ####ing monsters who, by any rightful and just society would be in prison just peacock around not even concerned about the quiet parts anymore. Heros to dudes like Pointman.

Yeah, the guy is a war criminal who should be hung by his balls. But it feels a bit much to say "Jews have guys like this to thank..." like there is any justification for antisemitism. It seems akin to saying Muslims around the world have Osama Bin Laden to thank for islamophobia. Both are ultimately statements that are teetering on justifying hatred.

[Fuzz]

Fair enough. He sure isn't helping the situation though.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Yeah, the guy is a war criminal who should be hung by his balls. But it feels a bit much to say "Jews have guys like this to thank..." like there is any justification for antisemitism. It seems akin to saying Muslims around the world have Osama Bin Laden to thank for islamophobia. Both are ultimately statements that are teetering on justifying hatred.

Only thing akin about it is they are both hate filled, sadistic, brainwashed psychopaths.

One hid in a cave and projected his messages through released secret recordings.

The other lives freely out in the open in Israeli society, was the ex military leader of a depraved psychopathic cowardly infanticidal so called national military. A representative of a country that was allowed on national TV to spew his bile and hatred and promotion of war crimes and genocide.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Only thing akin about it is they are both hate filled, sadistic, brainwashed psychopaths.

One hid in a cave and projected his messages through released secret recordings.

The other lives freely out in the open in Israeli society, was the ex military leader of a depraved psychopathic cowardly infanticidal so called national military. A representative of a country that was allowed on national TV to spew his bile and hatred and promotion of war crimes and genocide.

Sure. If you want to ignore the point I was making, that's valid.

[renny]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...7-october-gaza


Jews have guys like this to thank for the fear they have to live in around the world. ####ing monsters who, by any rightful and just society would be in prison just peacock around not even concerned about the quiet parts anymore. Heros to dudes like Pointman.

This is why, imo, it's antisemitic to conflate Zionism with Judaism. This conflation is so dangerous for Jewish people because it creates the permission structure for antisemites to spew Jew hatred and feel justified.

You don't know how many TikTok comment sections where I've seen "The Germans were right," or "We all owe Germany an apology," etc.. Truly alarming.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by Red Slinger

Yeah, the guy is a war criminal who should be hung by his balls. But it feels a bit much to say "Jews have guys like this to thank..." like there is any justification for antisemitism. It seems akin to saying Muslims around the world have Osama Bin Laden to thank for islamophobia. Both are ultimately statements that are teetering on justifying hatred.

I haven't heard any Muslim say "osama bin laden reps us" or "we have a special relationship with Saudi Arabia" because of holy sites in that country.

But the large majority of Jews in Canada - even those that believe Israeli use of force in the current conflict is unjustified and believe in a 2 state solution - would say they have a special/complicated/unique relationship to israel. And it's likely because of the right of return, birthright trips, huge amount of charity given by non-israeli Jews to Israel, dual citizenship, etc that Jews globally overtly support in the state. I even think Birthright was actually started by a Canadian Jew and something like 50-80% of Jewish families participate in the birthright propaganda trips. And all these actions serve one purpose - to more closely connect Israel and Judaism. Most Jews feel spiritually and/or politically and/or emotionally connected to Israel. That's a fact.

Within that context, I would think Canadian Jews have an ethical obligation to speak out against genocide committed by Israel because of their political, monetary and religious support for the state. But instead most are either silent or defending or Israel's genocide.

That's really hard to square. Every Jewish person I know had plenty of genuine outrage after October 7. Zero have spoken out against genocide, the 55 years of on-going apartheid policies in the west bank and the overt political support for a continuation of apartheid policies and illegal land annexations for the sole purpose of killing the viability for a two state solution. Where are Jewish Canadians of prominence - and there are many - advocating for sanctions or trade embargos with Israel? There are few, if any. Most Jewish voices that have platforms in Canada are actually upset with Canada's decision to recognize Palestine at all. .

Ultimately, as difficult as this might be to accept, the West's acceptance of genocide is racist and its largely driven by unwavering Jewish support for Israel in Britain, Canada and the US. Our countries believe Israeli security is more important than the right of Palestinians to live and it's because Israelis are mostly white and Jewish and Palestinians are mostly brown and Muslim. It's not really more complicated than that...

I know many Muslims - and everyone I've spoken to is genuinely outraged at the genocide and is less bonded to Canada as a result. Many Sihks and Asians I've talked to say the same thing. The mask is lifted and many many people have been red pilled on this. There's nothing that will change that.

Israeli policy has deeply wounded Canadian cohesion and it's made worse by the silence, bias and denial of our institutions and leaders.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I haven't heard any Muslim say "osama bin laden reps us" or "we have a special relationship with Saudi Arabia" because of holy sites in that country.

My point was that this is language that can and is being used to justify antisemitism. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

But the large majority of Jews in Canada - even those that believe Israeli use of force in the current conflict is unjustified and believe in a 2 state solution - would say they have a special/complicated/unique relationship to israel. And it's likely because of the right of return, birthright trips, huge amount of charity given by non-israeli Jews to Israel, dual citizenship, etc that Jews globally overtly support in the state. I even think Birthright was actually started by a Canadian Jew and something like 50-80% of Jewish families participate in the birthright propaganda trips. And all these actions serve one purpose - to more closely connect Israel and Judaism. Most Jews feel spiritually and/or politically and/or emotionally connected to Israel. That's a fact.

I think many people feel a connection of some sort to their native land. I don't think that's a unique feature among Jewish people.

Within that context, I would think Canadian Jews have an ethical obligation to speak out against genocide committed by Israel because of their political, monetary and religious support for the state. But instead most are either silent or defending or Israel's genocide.

What's the appropriate venue for this? Are you personally canvasing all the Jews to check if they've denounced the actions of the Israeli government? What is the suitable medium for denouncement? Do personal conversations count or only if you're included.

That's really hard to square. Every Jewish person I know had plenty of genuine outrage after October 7. Zero have spoken out against genocide, the 55 years of on-going apartheid policies in the west bank and the overt political support for a continuation of apartheid policies and illegal land annexations for the sole purpose of killing the viability for a two state solution. Where are Jewish Canadians of prominence - and there are many - advocating for sanctions or trade embargos with Israel? There are few, if any. Most Jewish voices that have platforms in Canada are actually upset with Canada's decision to recognize Palestine at all. .

Cool anecdote. How many Jewish people do you know and you spoke to at length about this to know how they felt?

Ultimately, as difficult as this might be to accept, the West's acceptance of genocide is racist and its largely driven by unwavering Jewish support for Israel in Britain, Canada and the US. Our countries believe Israeli security is more important than the right of Palestinians to live and it's because Israelis are mostly white and Jewish and Palestinians are mostly brown and Muslim. It's not really more complicated than that...

Assuming that's true, does that mean antisemitism is okay?

I know many Muslims - and everyone I've spoken to is genuinely outraged at the genocide and is less bonded to Canada as a result. Many Sihks and Asians I've talked to say the same thing. The mask is lifted and many many people have been red pilled on this. There's nothing that will change that.

Cool anecdote once again. You may want to consider expanding your social sphere.

Israeli policy has deeply wounded Canadian cohesion and it's made worse by the silence, bias and denial of our institutions and leaders.

Has it? Can you show some evidence of how this has deeply wounded Canadian cohesion (whatever that means)? Again, does all this mean it's okay to hate Jews? Cuz that's the point of the post you are responding to.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

I haven't heard any Muslim say "osama bin laden reps us" or "we have a special relationship with Saudi Arabia" because of holy sites in that country.

But the large majority of Jews in Canada - even those that believe Israeli use of force in the current conflict is unjustified and believe in a 2 state solution - would say they have a special/complicated/unique relationship to israel. And it's likely because of the right of return, birthright trips, huge amount of charity given by non-israeli Jews to Israel, dual citizenship, etc that Jews globally overtly support in the state. I even think Birthright was actually started by a Canadian Jew and something like 50-80% of Jewish families participate in the birthright propaganda trips. And all these actions serve one purpose - to more closely connect Israel and Judaism. Most Jews feel spiritually and/or politically and/or emotionally connected to Israel. That's a fact.

Within that context, I would think Canadian Jews have an ethical obligation to speak out against genocide committed by Israel because of their political, monetary and religious support for the state. But instead most are either silent or defending or Israel's genocide.

That's really hard to square. Every Jewish person I know had plenty of genuine outrage after October 7. Zero have spoken out against genocide, the 55 years of on-going apartheid policies in the west bank and the overt political support for a continuation of apartheid policies and illegal land annexations for the sole purpose of killing the viability for a two state solution. Where are Jewish Canadians of prominence - and there are many - advocating for sanctions or trade embargos with Israel? There are few, if any. Most Jewish voices that have platforms in Canada are actually upset with Canada's decision to recognize Palestine at all. .

Ultimately, as difficult as this might be to accept, the West's acceptance of genocide is racist and its largely driven by unwavering Jewish support for Israel in Britain, Canada and the US. Our countries believe Israeli security is more important than the right of Palestinians to live and it's because Israelis are mostly white and Jewish and Palestinians are mostly brown and Muslim. It's not really more complicated than that...

I know many Muslims - and everyone I've spoken to is genuinely outraged at the genocide and is less bonded to Canada as a result. Many Sihks and Asians I've talked to say the same thing. The mask is lifted and many many people have been red pilled on this. There's nothing that will change that.

Israeli policy has deeply wounded Canadian cohesion and it's made worse by the silence, bias and denial of our institutions and leaders.

This is a horrendous post. You're basically stating that Jews need to take some kind of loyalty oath, and your holding any Jew you meet de facto responsible for what Israel does regardless of what their actual views on the issue may be.

You've made up some kind of concept about a "special relationship". You've made up facts and figures, including about birthright, to try and rationalize what is clearly just bigotry.

By our own logic, you seem to say that your views are anti-Israeli and not anti-semitic, but according to you all Jews have a "special relationship" to Israel, and are therefore guilty of supporting genocide unless they bend their knee to you and take some kind of anti-Israel oath. So you are admittedly applying your views to all Jews and not Israel.

Really F-ed up man.

[PepsiFree]

The actions of the Israeli government and some Israelis in Gaza and the West Bank are certainly real factors contributing to any rise in antisemitism, but all they serve to do is explain it, not justify it.

It should be condemned all the same. Blaming Jews, or even Israelis in general, is no better than blaming Palestinians or Muslims for Hamas. Antisemitism isn’t justifiable just because the Israeli government is committing genocide, just as Islamophobia wasn’t justifiable just because it 9/11. Bigotry is never justifiable. Refusing to learn this lesson just keeps the cycle of hate going.

In case it needs repeating, the vast, vast majority of those impacted by this conflict, whether Jewish, Muslim, Israeli, Palestinian, or none of those, are entirely innocent people undeserving of hate, violence, or bigotry. These people have no one to “thank” period, and no one is to blame but the people committing those acts and those justifying or supporting them.

[Bill Bumface]

Good job CP, way to reel this one back in. Despite positions taking previously in this thread among different posters, it's always great to see the vast majority of us share the same stance against blind hatred and intolerance of any form.

[blankall]

I'm curious about a couple of things. What percentage of Jewish households need to participate in Birthright before the whole community is guilty? What is a Jew? Religion? Ethnic group? Is someone with one parent guilty? Perhaps use one grandparent, there is a precedent for that.

[Beninho]

Nm

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by blankall

I'm curious about a couple of things. What percentage of Jewish households need to participate in Birthright before the whole community is guilty? What is a Jew? Religion? Ethnic group? Is someone with one parent guilty? Perhaps use one grandparent, there is a precedent for that.

I suppose it depends whose benchmark you want to use.

It would be repulsive and wrong to use a Pointman benchmark where blind hatred and bigotry labels every last one as guilty. Or to go even further early Beninho where not only is the whole population guilty by default, those who protest the mass slaughter of innocents are as well and must surely be terrorist sympathisers. Or Nage Waza with his pathetic antisemitism claims.

I didn't note any concerns, corrections or outrage from you or your ilk then nor have I heard one word of disgust either regarding the ongoing genocide against a mostly innocent population.

So. Do you you think it is would be fair to apply the same criteria for guilt against Jews as it has been for the whole population of Gaza. I don't.

But it can't be forgotten that you have told some horrendous lies in this thread in order to defend war crimes.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I suppose it depends whose benchmark you want to use.

It would be repulsive and wrong to use a Pointman benchmark where blind hatred and bigotry labels every last one as guilty. Or to go even further early Beninho where not only is the whole population guilty by default, those who protest the mass slaughter of innocents are as well and must surely be terrorist sympathisers. Or Nage Waza with his pathetic antisemitism claims.

I didn't note any concerns, corrections or outrage from you or your ilk then nor have I heard one word of disgust either regarding the ongoing genocide against a mostly innocent population.

So. Do you you think it is would be fair to apply the same criteria for guilt against Jews as it has been for the whole population of Gaza. I don't.

But it can't be forgotten that you have told some horrendous lies in this thread in order to defend war crimes.

I made various corrections and apologized to you directly. I also personally messaged the one Palestinian poster who was in this thread and apologized to them many months ago. I do not share Pointmans views and do not appreciate you lumping me into this because you needed argument points for your vendetta with Blankall.

[Bagor]

You apologized directly to the me for your multiple accusations that I was a supporter of terrorism? Apologies because I seem to have missed that.

Pointing out horrendous lies is hardly a vendetta.

But anyways.... You'll note that I said "Early Beninho" and I was using that and Pointmans depravity as unchallenged extremist benchmarks used in judging people.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I mean you are entitled to feel anyway you want. But you are also not in my head. There is clear antisemitic currents within the pro-Palestinian movement. If you deny that I think you are lacking some introspection.I think i have grown to realize I will never be able to distinguish who actually cares about Palestinians and who just jumps on the cause to pile on the Jews. Many Jews are raised with the attitude that the world is out to get us and that the Palestinian cause is just another way for the world to gang up on the Jews. Unfortunately we have many examples to look back on in history., but I am trying to deprogram myself from this victim mentality. I understand I have thrown the word out in this thread and in hindsight it is not cool. It is not my job to be judge, jury and executioner on whether someone is an antisemite or just cares about the Palestinians. If you feel attacked I apologize and I am working on being better. I really have not much more to add but I think this thread needed someone to at least usher an olive branch in creating a mutal understanding.

Peace

I apologized several times to you and others. If you want a specific apology regarding that accusation then sure, I apologize for calling you a terror sympathizer.

My issue is you included me in your examples to prove that "you and your ilk" have made no corrections or apologies, implying that I haven't.

I think I have owned up to having various prejudices towards Palestinians that came out in a disgusting way post Oct.7th. I have been making a sincere effort to deprogram myself from this way of thinking, I believe I detailed this in more detail in past posts.

Given my name and past comments have been mentioned in back to back pages I would politely request for those comments to be left in the past as they do not reflect my current views today.

Thank you

[PepsiFree]

I’ll stand up for Beninho here and say your apologies and process of self reflection haven’t gone unnoticed or unappreciated. It’s a rare thing. You’re a good person.

Bagor, I get it. You and I have had some of the same nasty labels put on us, it’s not easy to brush off or forget, and you did mention some valid examples of people who have said or shared terrible things and never made an effort to walk it back or apologize. But maybe this can be the last time you mention Beninho among those people, because he’s not one. He didn’t have to apologize or acknowledge some of what he said was wrong, but he did, and I think that’s worth respecting and remembering.

[CroFlames]

I find it interesting that you need to be super careful about how/who/what you criticize about the genocide taking place in Gaza, but the in the Russo-Ukrainian war thread, it's fair game to criticize the Russian aggressor without limits. We call them orcs, and worse.

But imagine if we called Israeli soldiers orcs and the Israeli leadership & Netanyahu the orc manager.

I'm certainly not defending the Russians and I have no problem calling them such names because of their grotesque aggression. But I see no difference in what Israel is doing to Gaza (except on a smaller scale), so it's odd to me that the argument here usually boils down to how to properly criticize, lest you be called an antisemite.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

But imagine if we called Israeli soldiers orcs and the Israeli leadership & Netanyahu the orc manager.

Lots of people do outside of CP. And as someone who has been staunchly pro-Israel for a very long time, it is incredibly hard to deny it at this stage. What Israel is doing has gone way beyond the scope of what was necessary to respond to 10/7

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Beninho

I apologized several times to you and others. If you want a specific apology regarding that accusation then sure, I apologize for calling you a terror sympathizer.

My issue is you included me in your examples to prove that "you and your ilk" have made no corrections or apologies, implying that I haven't.

Thank you.

But I think you misunderstood my intent.

My intent sincerely was not to slur you with the past hence the "early" reference. My intent was, in response to Blankalls question of where the line is and him not (rightly) wanting Jews all painted with the same brush but no response, when it was the other side.

It's not for me to say but I honestly think reasonable moderate normal Jews need to me more vocal and visible in calling out the likes of Pointman for what he is.

I genuinely wish you all the best.