AC has stranded us in Athens … advice?

[cam_calderon]

Originally Posted by photon

Yeah that's what I told them.. next time do a better job of predicting the state of an industry in 25 years.

As opposed to seeing the writing on the wall and hoping that you're gonna get a miraculous pay rise, at a fictional rate, because you perceive you deserve it? All strikes end, and then you have fired your only bullet for the next five years.

[peter12]

I completely understand the concern over cost of living. I live in Vancouver on two high salaries, and even then it feels like a bit limiting sometimes. Not complaining, I am super privileged, but it gives me a sense of how unimaginably hard it would be to exist in Vancouver or Toronto on an "average" salary.

Unfortunately, wages are not a really good salve to this problem. We have limited our housing and all other kinds of public goods and infrastructure to such a degree of scarcity that basically everything is a race to the bottom.

[cam_calderon]

The rampant drug abuse and homelessness are just the icing on the cake.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

Look, I want them to get a good deal, but you seem generally surprised that wages are set by demand for a prospective employee's skillset.

Do you really think that someone who is essentially a server with some safety training should be paid higher than what they are paid, currently? If so, how much?

Flight attendants are typically gap-type jobs for younger men and women who like to travel, and are currently working towards something else. I get that seniority and experience matter, but there has to be a reasonably low ceiling for these kinds of skills.

Tell us what you do for a living and how much you earn so that we can tell you how much less you deserve too.

What you got a degree and think that makes you special? You are aware that most people can get a degree if they have the time and financial resources right? In many cases a degree isn’t actually necessary to do a job that someone with a degree has.

According to some posters in this thread the way you increase your earnings is by getting promoted or looking for other work so I’m not sure why you think arguing that flight attendants are “gap-type jobs” is relevant if that’s technically what any job is. Especially since you provided no data to support your claim or to support why we shouldn’t want a massive corporation that operates globally to provide a little better than gap type jobs to a large chunk of the workforce.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Tell us what you do for a living and how much you earn so that we can tell you how much less you deserve too.

What you got a degree and think that makes you special? You are aware that most people can get a degree if they have the time and financial resources right? In many cases a degree isn’t actually necessary to do a job that someone with a degree has.

According to some posters in this thread the way you increase your earnings is by getting promoted or looking for other work so I’m not sure why you think arguing that flight attendants are “gap-type jobs” is relevant if that’s technically what any job is. Especially since you provided no data to support your claim or to support why we shouldn’t want a massive corporation that operates globally to provide a little better than gap type jobs to a large chunk of the workforce.

My salary was negotiated between my employer and I. My earnings potential is based off on my two degrees (this is economic signaling, right) and my 15 years of progressive experience.

Like it or not, there are fairly consistent economic observations about the value of labour. Large corporations are good because they provide a really wide variety of jobs for people - from "gap-type jobs" to high-paying professional jobs. People consistently change roles or places of employment to make more money.

Here's some data, in the US, 44% of minimum wage workers are between the ages of 16-24.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...the-us-by-age/

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

Classic.



I wasn’t aware that employees get their time spent trying to help a business that flounders despite the employee’s best efforts back.

I get that you’ve been away for a while and are clearly in need of attention but you can do a little better than this, no?

Since the employees already got paid for their time why would they get something back if the business fails?

And in general I think the rhetoric aimed at the manager/investors is misplaced here. Flight attendants make little money mostly because the general public does not significantly value their services.

Let's imagine there was an airline that was equally convenient for schedule/routing but had the most friendly, most competent etc flight attendants. How much do you think the average person would be willing to pay extra for that? My guess is ~$0. If westjet/AC was even $1 cheaper people would still book them instead. And so none of the carriers invests more in FAs because their customers don't value it. There's a minimim number/quality for safety/regulatory reasons, and that's what we get.

[btimbit]

That absolutely made a difference 10 years ago when WestJet employees were known for being pleasant and fun. It was commonly brought up whenever people were comparing the two major airlines

[peter12]

Originally Posted by btimbit

That absolutely made a difference 10 years ago when WestJet employees were known for being pleasant and fun. It was commonly brought up whenever people were comparing the two major airlines

Did it? I always found it kind of annoying and cringe.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by peter12

Did it? I always found it kind of annoying and cringe.

Oh I definitely believe you, haha

'Why is this unskilled labourer enjoying themselves? Shut up and get my drink, peasant'

[PepsiFree]

Didn’t we literally just have a conversation this past week or two about airlines with people talking about the in-flight experience, including the FAs, and how it absolutely impacted who they fly with?

Bit bold to say people don’t value it.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

My salary was negotiated between my employer and I. My earnings potential is based off on my two degrees (this is economic signaling, right) and my 15 years of progressive experience.

So similar to any employment contract? Even a collective agreement.

Like it or not, there are fairly consistent economic observations about the value of labour. Large corporations are good because they provide a really wide variety of jobs for people - from "gap-type jobs" to high-paying professional jobs. People consistently change roles or places of employment to make more money.

That’s a lot of words used to make no real argument.

Here's some data, in the US, 44% of minimum wage workers are between the ages of 16-24.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...the-us-by-age/

That’s a lot of data and some additional words used to again make no real argument.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

So similar to any employment contract? Even a collective agreement.

That’s a lot of words used to make no real argument.

That’s a lot of data and some additional words used to again make no real argument.

I am absolutely not against collective bargaining, but there's an acceptable ceiling and floor to negotiations. Don't you agree?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Oh I definitely believe you, haha

'Why is this unskilled labourer enjoying themselves? Shut up and get my drink, peasant'

It's not that. I just get to my seat, put on my headphones and mind my own business. If the FA tells a little hee-haw joke that makes people laugh, good for everyone who likes it. It just doesn't do anything for me.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Didn’t we literally just have a conversation this past week or two about airlines with people talking about the in-flight experience, including the FAs, and how it absolutely impacted who they fly with?

Bit bold to say people don’t value it.

I seem to recall it being mentioned in some type of poll years ago when Cathay Pacific and Emirates were top for flight attendants contributing to a great experience. Some people may not pay for it, some people absolutely do.

Originally Posted by btimbit

That absolutely made a difference 10 years ago when WestJet employees were known for being pleasant and fun. It was commonly brought up whenever people were comparing the two major airlines

I don't know if people chose to pay extra to take Westjet over other airlines for that reason, but for some time, it certainly was the cherry on top on being able to avoid AC - Always cancelled/changing.

Originally Posted by peter12

It's not that. I just get to my seat, put on my headphones and mind my own business. If the FA tells a little hee-haw joke that makes people laugh, good for everyone who likes it. It just doesn't do anything for me.

First ever plane trip with my oldest, a FA fawned over us, gave us extra attention and at one point asked to hold my son for a bit. We still remember that to this day. I personally wouldn't pay extra for that, but I don't fault FA trying to make the mood nice. I'd rather that than FA that never showed up for most of the flight when they were wanted.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by photon

The flight attendants I know I've seen go from being able to live ok to it being an extreme challenge because inflation has far outstripped their income despite seniority and other things that they can do to improve things. I don't know much about the details, I just see that (and to be fair I see that across so much of society not just their jobs).


Yeah most people get their significant salary improvements through transitions rather than sticking with a job don't they?

A friend of mine has been a flight attendant for more than 25 years. The pay gets moderately better over time, but the main benefit of seniority is choosing your flights. She can fit the trips around her child-rearing responsibilities, and since she only does dreamliner destinations (London, Paris, Barcelona, London, etc), she not only gets to go to cool places, but the longer flights are much more efficient and rewarding in terms of hours and $.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by peter12

I am absolutely not against collective bargaining, but there's an acceptable ceiling and floor to negotiations. Don't you agree?

I haven’t said anything to suggest otherwise.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by peter12

Flight attendants are typically gap-type jobs for younger men and women who like to travel, and are currently working towards something else. I get that seniority and experience matter, but there has to be a reasonably low ceiling for these kinds of skills.

If you're talking about Asian or Middle Eastern airlines, sure.

North American and European (non-discount) airlines, I feel like the average age has to be around 35. I flew BA today and not one member of the crew looked to be under 45.

But yeah if you fly Singapore Airlines or Emirates your cabin crew is going to be young and adventure loving, not looking at it as a long term career.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by icarus

If you're talking about Asian or Middle Eastern airlines, sure.

North American and European (non-discount) airlines, I feel like the average age has to be around 35. I flew BA today and not one member of the crew looked to be under 45.

But yeah if you fly Singapore Airlines or Emirates your cabin crew is going to be young and adventure loving, not looking at it as a long term career.

Not sure about Signapore, but with Emirites it's actually a pretty well-known thing, although not official, that they won't hire anyone over 30. Qatar and Etihad 35-ish but a tad looser about it if they're attractive enough

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

Since the employees already got paid for their time why would they get something back if the business fails?

The point I was making is the owners are not the only ones at a loss and I think you know that.

And in general I think the rhetoric aimed at the manager/investors is misplaced here. Flight attendants make little money mostly because the general public does not significantly value their services.

Now I’m confused, earlier in this thread people were saying they were paid a lot now they make little money because the public does not value their service. Even though that same public is now upset that that same service is being taken away.

Let's imagine there was an airline that was equally convenient for schedule/routing but had the most friendly, most competent etc flight attendants. How much do you think the average person would be willing to pay extra for that? My guess is ~$0. If westjet/AC was even $1 cheaper people would still book them instead. And so none of the carriers invests more in FAs because their customers don't value it. There's a minimim number/quality for safety/regulatory reasons, and that's what we get.

And yet people continue to pay more and more for the same flights with the same number of flight attendants. Since they do need to be there one would think that would imply the public at least somewhat values them.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Not sure about Signapore, but with Emirites it's actually a pretty well-known thing, although not official, that they won't hire anyone over 30. Qatar and Etihad 35-ish but a tad looser about it if they're attractive enough

Yep I've known some Emirates and Qatar flight attendants, they come from all over the world and have a lot of fun living in Dubai and Doha. They do not resemble AC or WestJet cabin crew.